A good question and i've never really been able to come up with a great explanation... but i think it correlates with the question of what started the big bang, we may all be limited to guessing.

Now for a start to some sort of an explanation:
God created the universe with a plan/purpose/goal in mind
all of creation is designed to go along with this plan, meaning this is their best option
Some of god's creatures have the ability to choose whether or not they want to be a part of the plan (freewill)
Any choice to stray from the plan leads to chooser forfeiting their best option (opportunity cost)

Hi @chuch27,

I agree with what you say, but that still seems like it is all under the umbrella of perfection. For example, having a choice (freewill) is part of the perfection, then the choices that result in the freewill are also part of the perfection. But this is only an attempt to explain human imperfection, not imperfection in nature.

what imperfections in nature are you refering to?

All freewill beings make decisions... and these decisions necessary affect the other freewill beings. So satan's decisions can affect my ability to reach the ultimate goal. The more abilties/options you have as a being then the more you are able to trash God's plan, or you can use your abilities to "promote" god's plan

Diseases, birth defects, bunnies burning in forest fires, forest fires, tsunamis, earthquakes, Pat Robertson, etc.

That's fine, but we have jumped too far ahead. Where do you think Satan came from? Where did Satan's imperfections come from -- or is Satan perfect? If Satan's imperfection came from the freewill that God gave him, then we are back to start -- where did the imperfection in freewill come from?

These are all consequences(not the same as punishment) of straying from God's ultimate goal. Just like the consequence of falling off a cliff is death...even if you are pushed by Pat Robertson, the consequence is death!
created by godThis is what i meant with "before the big bang". I can only come up with guesses as to why and how.. the bible points to prideNot sure what you mean. Is no freewill better than freewill? Does love exist without freewill? By defintion when you allow "things" to make decisions you are at the mercy of them making bad decisions.

@church 27,
You are correct, WE will not know the answer to the equation. WE are not God. You are limiting God, Shawn is not, his God is limitless.
Please read Brandon Howards' post. He explains it nicely.

@AndrewWhat makes you think god could know the answer to the question? There is no answer untill i decide what x equalls. In the same way there is no future untill freewill beings make their decisions. some thing are determined (the sun will rise tomorrow) and some things are not determined... god can only know things that are determined

shawns view is this: God knows everything that there is to know... and I agree

In regards to Brandons post: Although this is unfortunately common christian rhetoric I think it's mostly illogical/unintelligent, and a view that i'm trying to free you from... the Mysterious God view. An answer the explains NOTHING.

@church 27,
Please realize you are redifining words to fit your beliefs.
1 John 3:19-20 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
You can change the meaning of 'everything' to fit your idea of a limited God.

Shawn is putting limits on his limitless God

You really are going to have to explain this comment, please.

You have admitted that you can only guess, so I don't meant to push this. I did just want to point out for the benefit of other readers that "pride" is just another possible step from an imperfection to an imperfection -- not the step from perfection to imperfection that we are seeking.

@AndrewRepetitious mantra, you failed the charge to prove our choices we make in the future exist now. Therefore, your claim that God is limited doesn't follow.

@Bo
The dicotomy is free will vs forced will so given free will pride is allowed. (My subjective take is) Imperfection would be not allowing free will and therefore pride. I'm sure a strong argument could be made if God is perfect and God has free will that free will is more perfect than forced will. In fact, if it was allowed and there are no examples of it how do we know its allowed?

@Shawn,I will repeat it again. Our choices exist in the future, God knows everything, everything includes the future; therefore God knows our choices now. Your analogy is faulty.

@BoMaybe, maybe not. Does Satan having limited knowledge necessarly make him imperfect? Well it depends on your definition of perfect. If satan is not omniscient then its not unreasonable that he would make bad decisions. Bad decisions=sin

Again, you are just skipping the step from perfection to imperfection. As long as we claim that God is perfect, and that ANYTHING else in imperfect, there is a step somewhere where perfection becomes imperfection.

If Satan has limited knowledge, and limited knowledge results in bad (imperfect decisions), then the limited knowledge is the imperfection, and we are still stuck with how that step came to be. Like a bad digital copy of a file that is missing information in data.

Where did you get your definition of omniscient? The bible or the dictionary? Why shouldn't i use the bible to define god's atrributes... its the best description of god that i have. So if my defintion of god doesn't fit with what the bible says then shouldn't i start to question my definition? When you read this verse do you use a definition of heart that means (blood pumping body organ). Or do you change your definition of heart so you can understand what the original writer is trying to say. The word everything has more than one meaning.... i use logic to determine the most accurate meaning... what do you use?
be more specific. I don't see what he explained.. he just made guesses and didn't base them on anything logical or biblical

@andrew
Doesn't matter how many times you repeat it you still failed to prove choices made in the future are currently "something" to know. Your obvious repetitiveness shows you have no ability to do so. If so, your argument is completely lost. Simply stating choices that havent been made yet exist isn't proof its mantra. You are asserting a worldview that I reject. You can't prove something in my worldview is wrong by insisting I abandon my worldview for yours.

@Bo
Only if your definition of perfect means "no room for improvement". but this would mean that new born babies are less perfect than adults beacause they have less knowledge. So we argree it's not the best definition of perfect right?
What does it mean to be a "perfect" hammer? Does a hammer have to be made of gold to be "perfect", or does it just need to be able to hammer? Now give the hammer freewill, and the difference between a perfect hammer and an imperfect one is whether or not it decides to be used as a hammer.
Satan may have been perfect in the sense that he was designed to be adequete for the purpose god had for him. He had the ability to choose not be used for this purpose... and he chose wrong.

Could it possibly be otherwise?

This wasn't a problem in the garden of Eden -- there were no kids, and no instructions to make them prior to the "fall". But back to reality, you are affirming how imperfection is simply a necessary part of nature, and couldn't be otherwise.

No, we don't. Perfect is perfect -- there is no room for improvement.

It depends on your ideal of perfection. As an atheist, I don't have a problem with calling perfection and human ideal, one that exists only in the mind, one which is different based on the person's personal ideal of perfection. It is when one insists that perfection exists in reality (as in God), that this all falls apart.

Once again, you are just going back to freewill (choice) as the disconnect between perfection and imperfection, but if freewill is a perfect creation of God, then it cannot lead to imperfect results and/or consequences.

@church 27,
If you believe God is omniscient and that does not include knowledge of future events such as choices, please quote the scripture that support your claim.You could. You could also question the bible.
Please define 'everything' as it is stated in the bible.

1 John 3:20
KJV 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
NAS 20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
CEB 20 Even if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.
NKJV 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

How is his view illogical? unintelligent?

@Shawn,

Repeating that it fails does not explain why you think it does. Thus my repetitiveness.

@Church27

What was I supposed to be explaining? That God has all knowledge? I think that that does explain how He has all knowledge, but I most certainly will not hold to it if you can find something in scripture to refute it, I am hungry to know more about God not necessarily to be able to fully, scientifically, and whatever else way explain it so that anyone could understand it. I am pretty sure God indicated in Job that our minds cannot handle all that His can.

However, I do find in scripture that God created everything, including time. For someone to have created time He must exist outside and be greater and omnipresent over time or He would not be the God of time. Now if you concede that God is the God of time and that He is not and will never be bound by it, then you should be able to see what I am saying, and if you do not concede that point I would ask you to please point me to scripture that suggests otherwise.

We are constrained by time so we have a hard time grasping that anything could not be restrained by time, but God is. If God were constrained by time. It says in scripture that Jesus is the Good Sheppard and He goes before you, so how could God go before you if He is bound by time. If He is not bound by time then He is both yesterday, today and tomorrow equally therefore knows everything because there has never and will never be a point in time that God has not already been beyond, before and during. If He is not omipresent over time then He is not God.

I do not see how this is unintelligent or illogical to assert, in-fact i think it is very logical.

@ Bo
first my goal isn't to completely explain how the perfect creation became imperfect, because I just don't know. What i'm trying to do is show that some of your assumptions may be wrong thus leading you to conclude that it has to be illogical. Just like the big bang is illogical if you assume just the laws of physics that we know of and are unwilling to concede that some could be suspended...We have entered the realm of the unknown and you may need to drop some assumptions.
If perfect means=to god, then yes anything god creates that is not also god, would be imperfect by your definition. (you atheists and your dogma!) But why only use this definition of perfect. Is this the definition god himself would use? Why not use a more functional definition such as "not flawed, "adequate", "able to be used for a purpose". Is it illogical for god to create a being that is less able then he is, and that the created being could still be perfect in gods eyes.... it only becomes illogical if you lock yourself in to the "only god is perfect box" You admit that a hammer doesn't have to be god to be perfect, but then why does satan have to be equal to god to be perfect? Perfect has more than one meaning!

@AndrewThis is a theological discussion on my worldview. You don't get to decide my worldview for me I don't have the same burden of proof as you for this.

Anyway, I already explained that I do not believe the future is set therefore this is the worldview we are discussing. Therefore, the choices we make aren't information that exists. They are as non-existent as the letter after Z. This is my worldview, the one I feel the bible describes. If you want to rape your point in talk to a Calvinistic Apologetic who takes on that view but don't pick and choose points from different religions to form a loaded question.

@church 27,
When a word does not fit your belief you are redifining the word or just changing it out for another. That is okay by me, but you are changing scriptures to fit what you think it should mean.
It makes it very difficult to discuss a topic if every time you redefine words.
Ex. omniscienct does not mean to know everything infinitely.
omnipotent does not mean to have unlimited power.
perfect does not mean to have no room for improvement.

@Shawn,
I am not asking you to prove it, just explain why you think it is wrong. All you have done is state it is wrong according to your worldview which you believe is support by scripture. Where does my reasoning fail?
Our choices exist in the future,
God knows everything,
everything includes the future;
therefore God knows our choices now.

@Brandon
Hopefully i didn't offend you.. sorry if i did
So here's where the disscussion has turned. If god knows the future then the future must already be determined. Feel free to argue this point, andrew has yet to show how it is possible for god to know the future whithout the future being determined. It seemed to me that your response to this was that god is outside of time and therefore doesn't have to play by the logical rules so he can know the future even though the future is not determined. Although this is a possibility it doesn't explain anything because its an attempt to remove god from the responsibility of being logically consistent.

Now, me and shaw both agree that scripture paints a picture of humans having freewill. Since we believe that god can't know the future unless it is determined, then we come to the conclusion that god's knowledge does't include all of our future decisions because they have not been made yet. In this way god has a "limited" omniscience because the future is not yet determined so he has know way of knowing things that do not exist. He can't know the letter that comes after Z because there is no such thing, and he can't know the future in its entirety because it's not decided yet( unless we don't have free will)