Humanity has been worshiping and hating snakes for far longer than the hebrew religion was around.

"snake worship The snake has been variously adored as a regenerative power, as a god of evil, as a god of good, as Christ (by the Gnostics), as a phallic deity, as a solar deity, and as a god of death. It has also served as the symbol of Satan and many deities, including Apollo and the Egyptian god Ra. Snake worship found expression in both the Toltec and Aztec periods of prehistoric Mexican civilization. In Aztec mythology a half-divine, half-human being descended to earth for a while as the great teacher of mankind; the Aztecs called him the "feathered serpent," the incarnation of the serpent sun. In Egypt, according to one authority, each temple had a reserved area where snakes were kept. In Greek religion the snake was frequently considered divine. Among the Greek Dionysian cults it signified wisdom and was a symbol of fertility. The Greek god most closely associated with snake worship is Apollo; the original name of Apollo's temple atDelphi was Pytho, after the snake Python . In Rome during the period of the empire, a sacred snake was kept within the city and was attended by the vestal virgins; it was believed that if the snake refused to accept food from the hand of one of its attendants, the attendant was no longer a virgin, and she was promptly killed. The ancient Mesopotamians and Semites believed that the snake was immortal because it shed its skin and appeared in a fresh guise. The Indians, Burmese, and Siamese worshiped the snake as a demon who also had good aspects. Primitive Hindu snake cults were incorporated into the worship of Krishna and eventually into the worship of Vishnu. Buddhist legends relate that Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the "king of the serpents" (often seen as the cobra), and Buddhists also revere the regenerative powers the snake exhibits. In China the serpent, in the form of the dragon, figures as a fierce but protective divinity. Snake charming, not to be confused with snake worship, is the art of fascinating, capturing, and controlling serpents."

Source - http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/snake_worship.aspx

When I was 13 years old, I was bitten by a diamond back rattle snake and almost died. You think that has anything to do with my thinking? The Devil made me do it! LOL

Oh, Adam, you disappoint. You wrote:

"Satan was just using an available and subtle creature to lure Eve."

Good sir, how can this be?

Genesis Chapter 3:14

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Now think, why would a just God punish ALL snakes instead of just the one snake? In fact, if the snake was the Devil in disguise, as you suggest, why wouldn't a just God punish the Devil, instead? (Didn't God know who the snake was?)

Throughout the bible we see a continuous pattern of God punishing "other than" the actual person doing the crime! The snake is just the first in his long line of punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty. (Is that moral?)

Also, in the story of Job, the Devil and God are sipping tea and eating crumpets, making bets on how much they could make Job suffer. How can this be, if the devil is now relegated to crawling on his belly?


Something tells me you never watched that video. But then, how could you posit a "good" explanation about a talking snake??

Ace, Get a better image of who is talking to who here. God and the Devil (Satan) are both Spirits. All of Satan's followers in the beginning were fallen spirits. (His Angles). Now place them in the earth, affecting the souls ( seed of Eve) with his seed.

The snake best describes what Satan is. You can see a snake, but how does one make you feel, or how would you describe one.

Think beyond the box. Do more with your brain, then settle for what you can see, feel or touch with your hands.

Linda,

I'm sorry, I don't understand your what you're getting at. Are you saying that the A&E story is a metaphor, and didn't really happen? Is the story true as written, or not?

If the snake was Satan, why the punishment of the snakes instead of Satan? And why was this Satan (same as the Devil?) punished for telling the truth? Your explanation makes no sense unless the story is a metaphor. Is Adam & Eve a metaphor?

Think beyond the box, you say. Okay.

I think that Xenu wrote the entire story to confuse human minds by getting them to believe in contradictions and nonsense so He can take over our bodies after we're dead. And if we don't agree to be his slave, He will torture us for eternity. But He Loves us. Can't you believe it?

I love you Ace, but I got to tell ya, you get under my skin sometimes.

I know that you are an intelligent man. I think you enjoy using it to mess with me. I know that you understand more then you portray with me. But some of the stuff you come up with is just so off the wall that I can't even began to reason with it.

So the best I am going to give you here, is for you to just keep following and I'll be praying for you to be enlightened.

@ Linda

You wrote: "...you get under my skin sometimes."

Imagine how I must feel. I ask a direct question and you go off talking on a tangent having nothing to do with what I wrote. You do this constantly.

You NEVER addressed the fact that this god punished the snakes IN PLACE OF punishing the Devil. If you can't see the obvious immorality in this, then how about if YOU be punished for the wrong doing of someone else. Would that be moral?

The HONEST answer is "NO", it is not.

How does being a spirit address any of this? It doesn't! You appear to be so deep inside your self created world of faith that you can't see the real world in front of you. That's a danger. You could be walking across the street and so wrapped up inside your own world that you can't see the bus coming directly at you.

Take a look at the world around you. If there is a god, the REAL world is his creation. The one inside your head is your OWN fabrication. Can you see the difference? One is real, the other is made up. Focus on the REAL world for awhile. (It's the difference between actually DOING something for someone versus just praying about it. One is in your head; the other is real.)

God is clear that if you have committed one sin you are guilty. Have you ever told a lie? stolen anything?

If you have then you are guilty. no excuses.
I dont know wha bible you read buddy but it sure is a poor translation.
You have a very bad translation of the bible indeed

Bible- No contradictions what so ever

Take over our bodies when were dead??? what's this?

Agree to be His slave or he will torture... my Bible says those who chooses to serve God will be rewarded with everlasting life in communion with God. Those who reject Him will forever be excluded and go to a place that is actually for the Devil and his angels...Hell was never for man to go to but some people just seem to want to go there.
Now here is where I see that snake comming forward.
I have always said that myself, hope you can get to the Creator from His creation.
Again Ace knows what He does not see or chooses not to believe in...but you sure knows this spiritual world don't exist because you don't believe in it.
Why does it sound like you are saying ; " I do not see it, I do not believe it...therefore it does not exist.
Now tell me, what physical deed can Linda do to enlighten you? What can Linda physically do to make anything better for your search for truth(if that is what you are seeking)

Where do you live? where do I live? What can I do physically here for you that you cant do there for yourself?

Do you think when people say they will pray that they just sit back and say; ok, my work is done.

But I understand why you think this way... you do not believe

@ Ace, Alright , I know that it wasn't fare of me to say "You get under my skin" and not explain why and for you to understand something, one needs to be very thorough because you refuse to or are incapable of seeing anything in more then one dimension. You said, you go off talking on a tangent having nothing to do with what I wrote. You do this constantly. Not true Ace. I answer you, but you refuse to look beyond the surface. You seem to have a problem seeing or understanding things, in any way accept one way. This is frustrating and it is you who does this constantly. Now, I am not going to continue writing negative things that I feel, because that would resolve nothing and I get enough of that from others and don't like it, so why do it to you. But you and I do have a problem communicating, that is for sure. You said, You NEVER addressed the fact that this god punished the snakes IN PLACE OF punishing the Devil. If you can't see the obvious immorality in this, then how about if YOU be punished for the wrong doing of someone else. Would that be moral? Satan and the Devil are the same thing and represent evil. Anything that opposes God and His nature is of the Devil ( sorta speak). Haven't you ever heard the saying, " The Devil made me do it!"? That's saying, " I did something bad and I blame it on the evil devil." The physical snake is simply representing the Devil because when you think of the crafty ways of a snake, it reminds you of the ways of the Devil or Satan. You said, How does being a spirit address any of this? It doesn't! You appear to be so deep inside your self created world of faith that you can't see the real world in front of you. That's a danger. You could be walking across the street and so wrapped up inside your own world that you can't see the bus coming directly at you. Trust me Ace, I see more of the world in the same instant, then you do in a year. I see the past, present and future all at the same time. But it gets better then that. I feel it with my heart, I see it with my mind. I touch it with my spirit. Sometimes, the spirit is so strong, that I smell a sweet aroma around me. Now, thats living Ace. Thats not just sitting on the front porch seeing all the beauty before me, that is feeling it in my soul and being a part of it. Do you think that God created this beautiful world just for man to live in and kill each other over it? He said to dress it and to keep it. Take a look at the world around you. If there is a god, the REAL world is his creation. The one inside your head is your OWN fabrication. Can you see the difference? One is real, the other is made up. Focus on the REAL world for awhile. (It's the difference between actually DOING something for someone versus just praying about it. One is in your head; the other is real.) To you, the real world is only what you see. To me its all of me coming alive when I wake up in the morning and being a part of it, not just looking at it through my eyes. If, during your lifetime, you contribute ⅓ of what I have during mine, God will be well pleased with you.

@ Bo,

I just found this interesting. I had just finished working on my answer to Ace, off line. When I opened Debate God to post what I wrote, I see that Karl had responded to him also.

Now, when I read what Karl wrote and compared what came from inside of him, to what came from inside of me, I couldn't help but notice that we both were in the same spirit. I mean, we both have like thoughts in our response. Don't you find that to be so?

You and Karl share the same general belief system. There is nothing mystical or "spiritual" about that -- if that is what you are alluding to.

Linda & Karl,

Did you notice that neither you nor Karl answered my question?

Stop and listen:

Person A commits a crime.

Person B, who had nothing to do with the crime, gets punished for it.

Is that morally just? Yes or No?

No more beating around the bush. Just answer the question.

@ Ace,

I personally don't want to think of an innocent person ever bearing the cross for another. And, to think that one man did, willingly, for the love of God and man, so that man could be forgiven for his sins, is almost more then the human mind can comprehend.

I can't help but seeing the whole salvation story as a brilliant attempt to lure people into the belief emotionally. But then again, I am controlled by Satan so why wouldn't I ?

The whole father / son language leads people to believe a human-like father and son relationship exists between God and Jesus -- like God would take little J fishing on the weekends (perhaps the Sabbath). This makes Gods more loving that "he was willing to sacrifice his only son" for the good of mankind. Then, Jesus, the loving man he was, chose to give himself freely for the good of mankind. Throw some Mel Gibson violence in there and the more he suffers the more guilt we feel for his sacrifice -- thus more we feel we owe him/God. But let's break this down...

- God is demanding a human sacrifice

- God is holding the entire human race responsible for the "sins" of two people -- that is like me beating my son because my grandfather visited a prostitute during the war.

- God has the power to forgive without gory bloodshed, yet he does not. Instead, he promotes the idea that violence and cruel torture can accomplish great things. If God could create the world with his word, he can certainly forgive with his word.

- Jesus was sent to save mankind... yet he failed. Apparently he only saves those who believe this story

What is more than the human mind can comprehend, is how people can actually believe this -- or see anything moral and "beautiful" in this story.

But on the other hand, if this whole story is real, I am going straight to Hell.

Trick questions here.

Points to note:

The snake represented satan

The snake was satan

The snake talked (snakes dont talk)

God and man spoke to the snake in the first person

also tricky because you cant judge God by mans standards.

Why does God have to be subject to the laws set in our human world?

So would you agree, that by man's standards, God is cruel and unjust?

NO

... the earth was cursed because of what man did...

...maybe the serpant was cursed for what satan did...

...tricky question...

Karl, please walk me through your reasoning here. Where do we lose you?

1. Adam did wrong

2. God holds you (Karl) responsible for Adam's wrongdoing

3. It is cruel and unjust for someone to hold person A responsible for person B's wrongdoing

4. If we were to hold God to the same standards as humans, it would be cruel and unjust for God to hold you responsible for Adam's wrongdoing

Adams wrongdoing brought dearth into this world. I am responsible before God for the sins I have committed. I am not being held responsible for what Adam did but for my sins. Yes, through Adam's din death came into this world for all men and the opened eyes we now all have as a result of Adams sin but I know that I have sinned against God myself. Have you sinned against God? I still hold we can not judge the Creator by the same standards that he put in place for His creation! If God has said don't do this, if you do it this is the consequences. Why would you have the same consequences put for ward to the person making the rules??-P.S.- earlier you said God demands a human sacrifice ( Jesus) for the forgiveness of sin. This is not true. God requires a perfect sacrifice. God requires blood for the forgiveness of sin. Jesus was the only sacrifice worthy for the forgiveness off sin for man. God makes it possible for His creation to choose Him.

I urge everyone to read this Encyclopida Britannica entry on Christianity.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/115240/Christianity



So you might better understand the faith you all believe in (or dont believe in) better and all the changes it went through and why and how it became one of the worlds dominant religions, and why you should probably question your faith in it's current form. Being an Encyclopedia I doubt you will find a more factual account of what Christianity is, what it's followers must believe in order to call them selfs Christians and why what you believe might not be exactly what Christ was teaching if he existed at all, which is also in question.

It is my opinion that Christ is a fictional character used to unite many different people of many different religions and classes, he is a character which became the ultimate public relations tool in which to "clean up" the image of the Jewish "One God" and allow people who could not live or would not want to live by the laws of the Old testiment better known as the Torah, but found that with Christs "adjustments" of salvation and washing away of sin and a "doing away with" animal sacrifice and all the "unsavory" parts of Judaisum, it became a much more paletable faith to follow, easy peasy: there is one god, believe christ is a personal god who came to wash away sins and be nice to others.

Because of Adam, you have a sinful nature (ROM: 5:12). You did not choose to have a sinful nature, you were given a sinful nature by God -- the same God that requires your lifelong apologizing for the sinful nature you did not choose, nor were you responsible for.
No, just like I have not sinned against the invisible pink unicorn.
I hear what you saying. If I am a 3rd grade teacher, I can tell the kids they can't have cigarettes in the smoking lounge. But I can have a cigarette if I want (for the record, I am completely against smoking). But what if I want the kids to look up to me and be like me? What if I am perfection? Would I be smoking? If you want to call God cruel and unjust, but the guy in charge, fine. But you cannot say God is perfection and attribute countless horrendous acts to him. You can't have it both ways.
So what part are you disagreeing with? That Jesus wasn't human or he wasn't a sacrifice?

Bo you know, even thou I pray and ask God to help me be a better man each day I don't think we have to continually ask forgiveness. Christ sacrifice was once for all. If we except it we have it. If you choose to reject it or turn you back in that's a different story. Also I think maybe in a way the sinful nature we have as a result of Adams sin is the curse man has because of man bringing sin into the world. I have a sinful nature but I have to decide to sin. It is not my fault that Adams decisions cursed the world but I don't have to now be mad about it. Work with what we have is what we should do. You know, sometimes I've thought that to be a non theist must make you feel free to do what you want. But also that it must make you think and ask if you are realy free to do what tyou want. Even I as a christian can do what I want bvut it should be good.encouraging. This is what we all want isn't it.. I am sorry but I can't other than believe that God is. Even if I do good or bad and trust me I'm not an angel. Bvut I have hope. I enjoy u all even if I become a vbit much at times.I've enjoyed it here

Karl, I am not trying to get you to reject God. I am asking you to question these beliefs you have that do not make any sense to me, or apparently to you either. You are pretending that this story in the Bible does not have serious philosophical and moral problems when attributed to a perfectly good and loving God, but I know you are smart enough to see them. I explained it the best I could, you just accept that you are a sinner and you need forgiveness from the God who is responsible for making you a sinner.

Why did God put that tree of knowledge in the Garden in the first place? Was all this not in his master plan?

Karl, I am giving you the greatest gift I could -- knowledge, like the kind God wanted to keep from Adam in your story. The Creation story is a myth like the hundreds of other with similar talking animals and mythological elements. It was the best our ancestors could do with the access to the knowledge they had. You are NOT a sinner, Karl. You do NOT have an evil nature. Let go of the fear and guilt. Go ahead, take a bite of the fruit



mmmmwwwahahahaha!

You have no shame either Bo!