Is the New Testament the inspired inerrant word of God? For it to be inerrant, there would need to be zero contradictions. Below is just one demonstration of the innumerable amount of contradictions contained within the NT.

On which day does the Christian New Testament state that Jesus died?

1. According to the synoptic gospels, he died on or after Passover -- after the Passover meal.
2. According to the gospel of John, he died on Preparation day (the day before Passover) -- before the Passover meal.

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(Note: for a brief overview of these Biblical Feasts in the Torah, see the next section below this one.)



Matthew:

Matthew 26:17-19

Matthew 26:23-28

Matthew 26:39, 49 after the Passover meal.

So to summarize, according to these verses in Matthew, he was put to death after the Passover Meal

Adding quick notes for brevity's sake, here are the parallel passages:
Mark 14:12-24
Mark 15:37-38
Luke 22:7-22
Luke 23:46



Compare this with the gospel of John:

John 13:1 John 19:30 Jesus died
John 19:31 Still Preparation day - the day before Passover.
John 19:33



This is one of the clearest examples of contradictions in the New Testament, that doesn't even stem from a scribal mistake/error, where they could've accidentally had a slip of a pen. This involves entire storylines, with multiple verses and chapters of text.



How can Christianity perpetuate their claim that the NT is the inspired inerrant word of God with such blatant contradictions?

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Biblical Feasts:
I will not cover all Biblical and Traditional Feasts and Holidays here, but instead will quickly elucidate two of the early spring Feasts, so anyone who is not familiar with them can understand a bit better. But first...

The Beginning of a Day
First note that Biblical (Jewish) days do not begin at midnight like we are accustomed to. They begin at sunset, because it is written in Genesis "And there was Evening and there was Morning the First Day", thus indicating sunset marks the beginning of a new day. This is how it has been kept by Jews from ancient times even until today. (And each new month begins with a New Moon).

Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread:
Passover is kept during the 1st Biblical month of the year (generally mid-spring), on the 15th day of the month. This means it begins at sunset on the 14th, which is the beginning of the 15th, and lasts until sunset at the end of the 15th day of the month. (Deut. 16:1-4, Lev. 23:5-6) For more information, see the section titled "Beginning or End of the 14th?" at http://karaite-korner.org/passover.shtml#beginning_or_end

Note that Passover (which is also the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) is a Sabbath day which they were to do no work on. Just like the 7th day of the week (Saturday) is the Sabbath day according to God in the Tanakh (i.e. "Old Testament") [see Leviticus 23:3], so also the First Day of Unleavened Bread is a Sabbath day, as is the last (7th) day of Unleavened Bread. [see Leviticus 23:7-8].

The point of all this is to show that Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were both on the same day, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread lasted for 7 days, of which the 1st Day (including Passover) and the last day were Sabbath days. But the contradictions that are the scope of this conversation are described up above.

Much more details could be included here, but if you want more information, you can read the sections about the feasts / holidays at http://karaite-korner.org/

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R/s,

- Jim

Hey Jim. Good work buddy but I don't think it is a good enough issue to make me recant God. Its almost like asking me where Her was born, show me the manger. You know, each Gospel was written to a certain people and also at the same time all people. But I am sure you already knew that, I mean you use the Tanach. I am sure I can get some Christian New Testament work done on this topic. Since you must be coming from a non Christian New Testament view. If you do not believe Jesus is God, great, there are many with you. ---THIS WILL NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT HE IS.--- you are just another man in the line waiting to live and die trying to prove something they can't. Anyways friend, a hope you have a good day

Can you make it a little clearer for me? On what days are you saying Jesus was crucified on in each Gospel? A Monday, Wednesday Friday? Don't they match or what?

Jesus didnt die remember, hes still alive.

The purpose of this isn't to get you to recant. I don't really care what you believe. I'm just saying, you cannot be an honest person while at the same time claiming the Christian Testament is the inspired inerrant word of God. If it is inspired by God, then it is "God-breathed", meaning every word was given to the authors to write down via the Holy Spirit, and thus without errors or problems, which is why it is also said to be inerrant.

Here is merely one example out of hundreds or thousands to unequivocally show it absolutely does have contradictions. The Bible is not the inspired inerrant word of God, regardless of what people say. If you choose to believe it anyway, that's your prerogative, but it doesn't change the truth regardless of your beliefs. This is akin to the same thing you just stated to me that my lack of belief in Jesus as being God doesn't change the fact that "he is God".

You say my beliefs don't change the truth, and I concur with that. Just like your beliefs don't change the truth. No prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus, and most claimed to be prophecies about a messiah of the latter days had nothing to do with a messiah of the latter days, thus, Jesus is not God. But that's a different topic for a different forum. This one has to do with the inerrancy of the texts. You can believe what you want -- closing your eyes and plugging your ears while humming -- but that doesn't change the truth. The Truth is all that I care about, not your opinion. (And I don't mean to be offensive by that, but I think any honest person needs to be that way.)

I don't know how I can make this any clearer than it is. The specific day of the week is irrelevant as the day on which Passover falls each year changes. It's not like the Roman established Easter which stems from the occult; Passover and Easter are two different things, even though Roman Catholicism claimed it to be the same thing and Protestantism retained those beliefs. Easter they keep on Sunday all the time, whereas Passover can land on any day of the week.

This is as clear as it gets my friend. Three gospels say Jesus' death took place after the Passover meal (which takes place on the evening of Passover), whereas the gospel of John says he died on Preparation day -- taking place before the Passover meal.

They contradict each other by entire story lines. This is as clear as it gets.

Ahh, touchÈ

Great point Jim, can't wait for your next biblical contradiction explainantion. I am not sure how Christians can read the same book we do and come to the conclusions this stuff actually happened and wasn't made up and was inspired by a God. I'm going to start a thread with websites and vids of what the bible says and what Chritians beleive, please feel free to add to it.

Thanks Berbs! I'm thinking I need to pick other ones in the future that give them an opportunity to try to argue it more, so I don't just end up with ones like this where it's an open and shut case and a dead thread, lol.

This is from my hand set so please bare with it. This is one of the first things I could get. I am sure there are even some whom can explain better



Matt 27:62-64: "Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead.' So the last deception will be worse than the first."

Mark 15:42-44: "Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time." This means it was Friday afternoon since the Sabbath day begins at sundown.

Luke 23:54-56: "That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near. And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment."

Talmud states he died on the eve of the Sabbath, because he practiced sorcery and took them from their God. Mk.14:12 says on the first day of the Unleaven Bread when they sacrificed the Passover.

John 19:31-33: "Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs."

A high Sabbath was one that landed on a feast day. The Gospels of Mark, Luke and John all make it clear that Jesus' burial occurred shortly after His death on the day of "preparation" (Friday) before the Sabbath (Saturday), and ends at the sunset of each day. Mark 15:37-47; Luke 23:53-56; John 19:31. In order for Jesus to have been buried just before the Sabbath (Saturday), Jesus' crucifixion could only have occurred on Friday.

The Bible is clear that Jesus was crucified on the Passover, Friday, then buried later that (Friday) afternoon or evening before the Sabbath (Saturday) began, and then rose from the dead the first day of the week (Sunday). How could there be a fulfillment of Jesus' prediction that He would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? What exactly does this mean? 3- literal 24- hour days or a statement related to a certain time period.

In Old Testament the expression "one day and one night" was an idiom used often by the Jews for a day, even when it was applied to only a part of a day. The Jewish reference to this period as three days and three nights is strictly in accordance with the Jewish mode of reckoning. Evening and morning, or night and day, is the Hebrew phrase for a natural day. It was a maxim among the Jews in computing time, that a part of a day was to be received or computed as the whole.

Christ was dead at three o'clock on Friday, they had before six o'clock, three hours to bury Him. After going through the red tape with the Romans it took less than an hour. The Jewish reckoning of time is found in the Jewish Talmud and the Babylonian Jerusalem Talmud (the commentaries of the Jews), said any part, an "onan", any part of the day is considered a full day. On Friday before six o'clock by Jewish reckoning, any minute was considered one day and one night. From Friday night at six o'clock to Saturday at six o'clock, was another day and another night. From Saturday night to Sunday was a third day. Thus, Jesus was in the grave part of Friday (a whole "natural day"), through all of Saturday (the second day), and from Saturday at sunset a part of Sunday (the third day). Thus, it is likely that the part of the day (Friday) on which Jesus was crucified, the entire day He was in the grave (Saturday), and the part of the day on which He rose again (Sunday), estimated as entire days. The concept of three days would be an idiom, not necessarily meaning 3 full 24- hour periods.

Genesis 42:17 shows us this idiomatic usage was common in their culture. Joseph had his brothers imprisoned for three days; in v.18, he speaks to them and releases them, on the third day. I Samuel 30:12, 13: "For he had not eaten bread or drunk water for three days and three nights," and in the next verse, "My master left me behind… three days ago." There are other instances in the Bible in which part of a day is viewed as constituting a whole. For example, the same quantity of time referred to in the Gospel accounts of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection as three days and three nights, which in reality was only one whole day, a part of two others, and two whole nights, is termed three days and three nights in the book of Esther. Compare Esther 4:16 ("Go ...neither eat nor drink three days, night or day . . . and so will I go in unto the king"), with Esther 5:1 ("On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall") this is also found in 2 Chr.10:5, 12; Gen. 42:17-18; 1 Kings 20:29; Luke 2:21.

The Jews were aware of Jesus' prophecy. Matt. 27:63. The fact that the Jews asked that a command be given that the sepulcher be made secure "until the third day" showed that when the Jews spoke of "three days," Matt. 27:64, they did not of necessity mean three "whole (24) days," but parts of three days, as was the case of Jesus' lying dead in the grave. While this is debated the evidence for which day He rose is absolutely clarified in Scripture.

WHAT DAY DID JESUS RISE?

Matt. 28:1-2: "Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it." The first day of the week is Sunday according to Judaism, according to the New Testament since Saturday is the 7th day.

Mark 16:1-4: "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. And they said among themselves, "Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?" But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away-- for it was very large."

Luke 24:1: "Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared."

John 20:1 "On the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb."

"Just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish so will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth." This is a statement of nature and fact not of time. In rebuttal to the Pharisees not believing his miracles only one last one will be given the resurrection. He's expressing that he will die giving Jonah as a pre-type of his death and resurrection. It was an idiom used for what He would do. How do we know this? All one has to do is read the eyewitness accounts which verify what was meant.

Luke 24:21-23 "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. "Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive."

Jesus has twice appeared to people none of which were the apostles but disciples. Cleopas and the other disciple had disbelieved the two reports already given of the resurrection. It is now the third day since all these things have occurred. If he was in three 24 hour periods it would have read the 4th day. The scripture is absolutely clear in the eyewitness testimonies on this.

Jesus himself said he would rise ON the third day more than he used this one statement of Jonah. The testimony of Paul who refers to the scriptures as his validation. 1 Cor. 15:3-4: " For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures and that he was buried and that He rose again the the third day according to the Scriptures." The third day. If it was 3 full 24-hours Paul would have said after the third day or more precisely the fourth day. Paul is not preaching another gospel nor taking liberty in interpreting the event, he is speaking according to the Scripture and the facts.

Jesus also made it clear from his own mouth, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."He was speaking of the temple of His body" (John 2:19--21). There it is! Peter in the book of Acts declares to the Jewish brethren (Acts10:39-40) "And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. "Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly. "

Notice the apostles are very specific what day Jesus rose on and the apostles offered Jesus 'post resurrection appearances as "many convincing proofs" (Acts 1:3). The Resurrection was the catalyst for their powerful fearless preaching of Christ as the Son of God (Acts. 2:22-36; 4:2,10; 13:32-41; 17:1-4,22-31).

He rose just as He said he would- on the 3rd day. So whatever Jesus meant by using Jonah is clarified by the apostles and the very act of the resurrection.

THE TIME OF THE CRUCIFIXION

Is there a contradiction between Mark's account and John's of the timing of Jesus' death?

Darkness was over the land Lk.23:44, Now it was the 6th hour (12:00) and there was darkness over all the earth until the 9th hr. (3:00) Mk.15:33 and Mt.27:45 state the same thing.

Mk.15:25: "Now it was the 3rd hour and they crucified him."

John 19:14: "It was about the 6th hour he was on trial."

Mark in his text tells us the crucifixion took place on the 3rd hour using the Jewish reckoning of time, which means around 9 AM in the morning. The Jews measured time by breaking the day into 12 hours twice, with an additional 4 watches in each 12 hour period. The new day in Jewish time began at sunset and the morning began at sun up approx.6 AM.

The apparent contradiction with John's writing can be easily solved through the centuries of time. It would be hard to accept that John with the other Gospels written over a period of 20 years together, wrote his last with a span of 30 more years later would introduce an independent reckoning of his own. And not taking into account what was already handwritten and bring confusion in the records.

What we need to understand is that John is writing from Asia Minor at least 30 years after the events transpired 70-95 A.D. When John wrote his Gospel the Jewish temple was destroyed and the nation was scattered. So everyone was now under Roman influence, whereas before they existed partly under Rome still functioning as Israel. So when he wrote there was no more Jewish standard of time only Roman. So John used the official Roman mode of computing time. The 6th hour would be 6 AM as they counted the day from 12 midnight as we still do today. This would coincide exactly with the other writers who used the Jewish reckoning of time. The trial was early in the morning and the crucifixion approximately began at 9:00 in the morning lasting until 3 in the afternoon. So John consistently used Roman time while the other Gospel writers use the Jewish standard. Therefore there is no conflict in the accounts.

There is an underlying assumption that if it came from a god, it must therefore be true.

But this presumes that a god is necessarily moral, and cannot lie. Religious people will tell you that god is "above" morality , to account for the evil; (above logic, above the universe, above anything that can be used to discount the validity of their god).

To assume that a god will not lie, is to contradict perhaps every god that Man has ever claimed to exist. Even in the bible, the first lie was told, not by a deceptive serpent but, by the god of Adam and Eve.

Again, to assume that a god will not lie is a poor assumption, indeed.

In other words: The "Word of God" cannot be taken as necessarily true *even if it actually came from a god*!

It would also help if you would separate your thoughts into paragraphs, separate quotes off into quote boxes, and organize categories of thoughts into groups of paragraphs, so that not only it would be easier to follow everything you say, but it would also make it easier to carry on an organized discussion. )

Hope you have a great day!

- Jim

My apologies for sending the same message x3. Unfortunately using a hand set it comes out this way

James,

Bravo on your research here!

What do you think about Bart Ehrman's reconciliation of the

accounts in Jesus, Interrupted where he actually believes

that John had the correct date of death and the Synoptic

Gospels were working toward presenting Jesus as the perfect

unspotted Passover lamb and wanted to really get that

portrait, right?

Also, what if one acknowledges different sources between the

Synoptics and the Johannine gospel and believes that they

have different, not necessarily contradictory, reportings.

I'm actually amazed at how much agreement there is between

the Four Gospels considering especially the late dates that

are given by liberal, critical scholars.

Blessings,

Adam

I know I said I would have this by tonight after work, but this text editor messed up half of what I wrote after I was about 1/2 done with my response, so even though I'm about back to the point where it first was messed up now, I still have a couple more sections to type up and will not be able to get that done tonight. I have plans tomorrow, so that's out as well. It'll likely be Friday evening or Saturday before my posts are submitted to both Karl and Adam. Sorry for not following through with what I said. Claiming "Extenuating Circumstances". ;-P

James,

No problem. I know that we are just so close to converting

you to the belief in the absolute inerrancy of the Holy

Scriptures, that there is no need for you to make excuses.



(BTW, James is my very intelligent cousin-in-law. He is getting

so popular on this site that I hope to score a few credibility

points through association.)

--Adam

Karl Thanks for your response.I took the time to read and consider what you presented, and I hope you will do the same for what I post. Some of what you posted was irrelevant for this present conversation, such as the time of day (i.e. 3rd hour vs. 6th hour).I won't take the time for those things (and others) during this conversation, as this will be lengthy as it is. Here are the problems with the content of your post, as I see it: 1. You do not have an understanding of the Passover week, and thus do not understand that multiple Sabbath days fall within the week timeline; there are 4 of them. 2. You attempt to fit all the texts into your understanding, rather than fit your understanding into the texts, and by doing so have taken the story lines out of chronological order, as you can see when you go back and review what you wrote.You listed later passages/events as though they came earlier, and the earlier passages/events as though they were later.I believe this is partially due to the fact that you think there was only a single Sabbath day (which you say was Saturday) and that this single Sabbath day was simultaneously the Passover day (a High Sabbath). Addressing Problem #1: I gave a very brief run-down of Passover in my initial post, but here is a slightly less brief description of it: Biblical Feasts: 1. Passover 2. Feast of Unleavened Bread 3. Feast of First Fruits 4. Shavuot 5. Yom Teruah 6. Yom Kippur 7. Sukkot A. Passover is on the same day as the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. B. The Feast of Unleavened Bread lasts 7 days.The first day and the last day are both Sabbath days. C. Feast of First Fruits falls on the Sunday between the first and last days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.It comes directly after the normal Saturday-Sabbath that falls during the Feast of Unleavened Bread, between the first and last days of the feast.Feast of First Fruits is one of two times a year a Sabbath day is guaranteed to land on a Sunday. D. Shavuot is one day long, a Sabbath day, and occurs 7 weeks after the Feast of First Fruits - the 1st day following the 7th Sabbath after the Feast of First Fruits; the 50th day when beginning to count the omer, from the day of the waving of the sheaf (again, the Sunday which is the Feast of First Fruits.)This falls on the same day as the Christian holiday, Pentecost.This is the only other Biblical feast which is guaranteed to land on a Sunday. There are also the fall feasts of Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot, but I will not be elaborating on them here. To see a calendar example of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, go to the following link and adjust the calendar for April 1, 2010. http://karaite-korner.org/holiday_dates.shtml It will have a layout of Chag HaMatzot (Feast of Unleavened Bread) beginning Thursday April 1st and ending Wednesday April 7th.Each of those days are Sabbath days.Then you also have Saturday, April 3rd which is a Sabbath day, and the following day, Sunday April 4th which is a Sabbath day.Thus, 4 Sabbath days throughout the Passover week, not just one Sabbath day on Saturday.There is absolutely no requirement for Passover to have fallen on Saturday, and it actually has only 1 in 7 chances of doing so. For more information, visit http://www.karaite-korner.org, or read the Torah. Now that we've established there are 4 Sabbaths during the Passover / Feast of Unleavened Bread week, much of your argument falls away.Your post appears to come from the premise that whenever they say "Preparation day", it must have been the day before Saturday (and for some reason, must've also been the day before Passover).You made statements such as Preparation day had to be Friday (before Sabbath), and Sabbath had to be Saturday, etc.But as I've shown above, which is easily verified, there were three preparation days during the Passover week, and four Sabbath days.So take the example of April 1st -- 8th (2010) for example above.Wednesday March 31st was the Preparation Day for Passover, Thursday was High Sabbath (Passover, as well as 1st day of Unleavened Bread), Friday was Preparation day before the Saturday-Sabbath Day, then Saturday was a normal Sabbath day.Then the following day Sunday was a High Sabbath (Feast of First Fruits), then Tuesday April 6th, 2010 was Preparation Day for the last Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and then Wednesday April 7th was a High Sabbath again, for the 7th day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Addressing Problem #2: Now that we have that cleared up, here are the passages that you and I both used for our posts, as well as all the other text between them.I'll juxtapose the Biblical storyline with the timeline of the Passover week, so there won't be confusion anymore about what the Bible is portraying. Matthew 26:17-19 "Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus and asked, 'Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?' And He said, 'Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, "The Teacher says, 'My time is near; I am to keep the Passover at your house with My disciples'".' The disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover." Timeline: This is on the Day of Passover (Thursday), which is also the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Here it explicitly tells us that it is the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is also Passover (as you even noted in your post), according to the Torah. In your post you presented verses that came later-on in the gospels, trying to prove that Jesus died before Passover, by showing texts stating he died on Preparation Day.From what I can see, you equate the term "Preparation Day" with Friday, though they are not synonymous terms.(In the same way, you equate the term "messiah" with there being only one person to fill such a role, and only see Jesus as being a "messiah", yet that is not the case in the Bible, since there have been many messiahs, both as high priests, and ruling kings.)Preparation Day is the Day of Preparation for any Sabbath / High-Sabbath, not just before Saturday.You took the passages out of textual and chronological order in order to try to prove your point, which is a biased and incorrect one. The synoptics unequivocally state that it is already the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the verse Matthew 26:17 as you can see above, and go on to say in verse 18 that Jesus told them to prepare the PASSOVER meal, and that he would be eating it with them that evening.In verse 19th, it is still the First Day of Unleavened Bread (i.e. Passover), and they prepared the Passover meal as Jesus directed them to do.In verse 20 and following, Jesus and the disciples are all eating the Passover meal together. How do you reason with yourself that Jesus died before Passover when he was eating the Passover meal with the disciples?? Jesus did NOT die on Preparation Day before Passover, because as we can see, he was eating the Passover dinner WITH the disciples, and thus died AFTER Passover.This is what I posted in my initial post for this thread up at the top, and this should end any attempts of argument.The rest of the Biblical storyline to follow simply needs to be explained to show what is happening when they make further mentions of "Preparation Days", etc, which I'll help sort out below. Going with the calendar example above, with Passover and the First Day of Unleavened Bread falling on a Thursday (i.e. April 1, 2010, for example), we would see Jesus and the Disciples eating the Passover Dinner on Thursday evening.(Technically they should've been eating it Wednesday evening, but the authors of this Greek-based text seem to have misunderstood that from the Torah, and so have it at the end (evening) of the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread, and at the beginning of the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread.This means the disciples were doing work (i.e. preparing the Passover Meal) on the High Sabbath day of Passover / 1st Day of Unleavened Bread.Hence, Jesus and the disciples were violating Torah, according to these Greek texts.In any case, Thursday evening, they were eating the Passover meal together, and Jesus was still alive at this point.Thus, we can see he definitely DID NOT died on the day of Preparation to Passover -- he did Not die prior to Passover, according to the synoptic gospels, but was still alive on and after Passover. Matthew 26:20-29 Timeline: Thursday evening, on the day of Passover, during the Passover meal. Here Jesus and the disciples are eating the Passover Meal on the 1st day of Unleavened Bread, together - on Passover.This is where Jesus tells them to eat the bread and wine as symbols of eating his flesh and drinking his blood (both things of which are forbidden in the Torah, by the way). Mathew 26:30-45 Timeline: Thursday night into Friday twilight-morning, on the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread After the Passover dinner, they went to the Mount of Olives, to the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus tells Peter that he will deny Jesus three times before the rooster crows in the morning (i.e. before the roster crows for the sunrise of the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread).He told the disciples to wait there while he went a little ways away to pray that God the Father would make it possible for him (Jesus) not to be sacrificed, but then gave up his own will in order to follow the Will of God (i.e. Jesus and God had two different Wills/Desires).He went back and forth a few times, finding the disciples sleeping, and going back to pray more. Matthew 26:46-56 Timeline: Still Thursday night into Friday twilight-morning, on the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread, before the rooster has crowed, still in the Garden of Gethsemane on the Mount of Olives. Here Judas came with a large crowd with clubs and swords.Judas kissed Jesus, signaling who should be taken away.One of the disciples cut off the ear of the slave of the high priest, but Jesus healed it and said those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Matthew 26:57-75 Timeline: Friday, the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread, early morning, before and leading up to the time that the rooster crowed. Jesus was brought to Caiaphas the High Priest.He was questioned and then accused of blasphemy after they forced him through a solemn oath (vs. 63-64) to say he was the son of God.The girl accused Peter of being a disciple, and Peter rejected/denied Jesus three times, and then the rooster crowed (vv 71-75). Matthew 27:1-25 Timeline:Morning of the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread (Friday), and now after the rooster had crowed.This was also after the Day of Passover, and was also the Preparation Day before the Saturday-Sabbath Day All the Jews bound Jesus and brought him to Pilate, the Roman Governor.Judas hanged himself after feeling remorse for what he had done, and after returning the 30 pieces of silver to the Priests, and then went and hanged himself (vs. 5). (This is in contrast to the method of his death depicted in Acts 1:16-18, where instead he purchased a field with the 30 pieces of silver, and fell over in the field, and his intestines burst out).The prophecy-claim there in Matthew 27 has nothing to do with the incident of Judas, nor is it even a prophetic text if you go read it in context.Matthew continues with Jesus standing before Pilate, who let the crowd choose whether to release Jesus or the murderer Barabbas.The crowd apparently chose Barabbas, and condemned Jesus to crucifixion.Then Pilate had it done as the crowd demanded, but washed his hands of the incident. Matthew 27:26-50 (Here Jesus Dies) Timeline: Still Friday, the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread (after Passover), and after the Rooster Crowed, in the morning hours.This is still the Preparation Day for the Saturday-Sabbath Day. Here Jesus had a crown of thorns placed on his skull, and was spat on and beaten. They led him away to be crucified. On the way they forced Simon of Cyrene to carry his cross.They then divided up his garments.Two robbers were being crucified with him, both of which also ridiculed Jesus along with the others.(This is in contrast to the gospel of Luke stating one of the robbers repented, and Jesus said that he would be in paradise with him that day (Luke 23:39-43).Matthew continues on showing that Jesus cried out "God why have you forsaken me" (vs. 46).Then Jesus cried out in a loud voice, and DIED. Hence, Jesus died After Passover, on the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread.This was on Friday, the Preparation Day before the Sabbath Day of Saturday. Matthew 27:51-61 Timeline:Friday day, on the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread (which was after Passover).Jesus had died now.This is still the Preparation Day prior to the Saturday-Sabbath Day. Here the temple curtain separating the Holy of Holies from others was ripped in two.In vs. 52 many saints who had been dead were raised to life now that their tombs had been opened.The women looked on from a distance, and come evening time, a man named Joseph from Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. After receiving it, he wrapped the body, placed it in the tomb, and rolled large stone in front of the tomb before leaving.The two Mary's were sitting opposite the grave. Matthew 27:62-66 (This is one you mentioned, Karl) Timeline: Saturday, which was the next day after Preparation, since it was now the Saturday-Sabbath Day.This was the 3rd Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The Chief Priests and the Pharisees apparently gathered with Pilate on this Sabbath Day (Saturday) to remind Pilate that Jesus had said he would rise from the dead after three days.They asked Pilate to secure the tomb so Jesus' disciples wouldn't steal it and then try to tell people he had risen from the dead.Pilate told them to take the guard and secure it, which they had done, including sealing the stone shut on the tomb. Matthew 28:1-10 Timeline: Sunday (1st day of the week), which is the day after the Saturday-Sabbath Day, and is now the 4th Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.This is also the Feast of First Fruits, which is a High-Sabbath. Both Mary's came to look at the grave on this Sabbath day.The angel of the Lord descended causing a great earthquake, and rolled away the stone and then sat upon it.The angel said to the women to not be afraid, and that he knew they were looking for Jesus, but said he was not there because he had risen from the dead and had gone to Galilee ahead of them, and that they would see him there.In vs. 8, the two Mary's ran to share their knowledge about Jesus with the disciples, and even encountered Jesus on the way back to them, so that they had not only encountered the Angel of the Lord telling them what had happened, but even Jesus himself! And the women went to tell the Disciples to go directly to Galilee to meet Jesus.(This is in contrast to John 20:1-2, where Mary found the stone rolled away, but hastily reported to the disciples that she did not know what had happened to Jesus, at which time they ran to the Tomb to see for themselves [i.e. not Galilee].) Matthew 28:11-20 Timeline: Sunday, the 4th Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is the Day after the Saturday-Sabbath Day, and also is the Feast of Unleavened Bread, making it a High Sabbath Day itself. The soldiers reported to the Priests what had happened, and then the Priests gave them money to say the disciples stole the body. The disciples went on to Galilee as instructed by the women who had encountered Jesus and the Angel of the Lord, and had told them to meet him there. Then Jesus commanded them all to go forth and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and said he would be with them until the end of the age. Summary: I don't see how anyone who pays attention to what the Bible says can try to say that Jesus died before Passover, according to the synoptic gospels. It is as plain as day that he died after Passover, according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Only John says it was prior to Passover.There is no honest dispute to this. It is important to admit things are what they are, rather than try to twist them to fit into what we want them to be.This is as clear of a contradiction as you can get: John says he died before Passover, whereas Matthew, Mark, and Luke all say he died after Passover. Respectfully submitted, - Jim

@Adam,

(Editing Post. Mistook a few posts I was reading!)

Well, admittedly it's been a little while since I read "Jesus, Interrupted" by Ehrman, but based on what I recall, I'm quite certain that Ehrman does not say the day of Death can be reconciled.

From what I remember of his book, when reading his book, he does show there are different theologies given in each gospel, but I did not see him saying they should be taken to be reconciled in any facet. Instead, the gospels should be read as individual letters from individual authors, each with their own theological story and points to make. Ehrman avers that when one takes the 4 documents from the 4 authors and tries to converge them, you no longer have the story that any of the authors had been trying to tell in their respective letters, but instead you create a 5th story altogether. To my knowledge, he in no way attempts to display any reconciliation between the day Jesus died on. If you have evidence to the contrary from his books, please let me know.

I will say I agree with Ehrman, that the day prior to Passover, as displayed in the gospel of John, would've been the only acceptable time for Jesus to die, given the entire storyline, as otherwise they would've been violating Torah. (And yet, they still work, as I someone pointed out in my most recent post, and could point out more things as well.) Overall, there are many problems with the death and resurrection stories, from timeline and other contradictions, to violations of Torah stipulations that the Jews would not have done, etc. This would've have slipped by a Jewish author, and certainly would not be something that a Perfect God would've missed / forgotten about; however, it is easily something that Romans (pagans) would've misunderstood, haven't limited knowledge about the Jewish Scriptures. And we see that in abundance.



In this case, I would say I would agree with them, that there are different sources between the Synoptics and the Gospel of John, just like there are different sources between the various Synoptics in-and-of-themselves; however, the issue of whether someone believes they are not contradictory is beside the point. Their belief or lack of belief doesn't change the truth, just like Christians would say my lack of belief in their God wouldn't change "the truth". The truth stands, regardless of peoples' beliefs. There are contradictions between every Gospel from the other Gospels, and there is no refuting this if one is honest with themselves and the texts. My post in this thread is merely one of hundreds of examples possible. There is a contradiction, plain and simple. )

I have to diverge in emotion here. )

I cannot rightfully say I am amazed. In fact, I'm quite appalled that the Christian Testament has been sustained this long (just like Islam and others, too). The texts are selected and maintained so poorly, and stand in such contradiction to the Tanakh ("Old Testament"), not to mention, themselves, that the only way it could have been promulgated throughout history was through physical life-threatening force. And that's precisely what the Roman Catholic Church did. By the time of the Reformation and today, it's engrained so much into the programming of peoples' minds, it is nigh impossible to get people to open their eyes and see the truth (and more, admit it to themselves, rather than reject it / rationalize it away via sophistries). My personal opinion is, that is a real shame.

The Romans had hundreds of years of editing the texts, making them more inline with themselves, and still couldn't do it after all that time. They certainly got rid of many issues, but still so many remain!

Any coherence between the gospels is not difficult to fathom. The gospels, having been separated by years to decades from each other, make it easy for one to reference another, for similarities. Folk-lore of the day most likely intertwined with these very things, as well as non-canonical writings along the same lines. Hundreds of years for scribes to further edit the manuscripts allowed for greater cohesiveness. But once again, too many remain to give any indication this is in any way the inspired, inerrant, word of God.

Again, just my two cents, but based on the facts at hand. )