Where were you before you were born? That's probably where you are going to be after you die.

The concept of infinity is beyond comprehension, but let's give it a shot. Imagine something infinite -- not something that lives a million year, a billion, a trillion, or even a gazillion years -- infinite, never ending. Now imagine you are at the start of it. What are the chances? Statistically, realistically -- it cannot be comprehended. In short, a less probable reality cannot possibly exist.

But let's pretend God did create our "souls" at the moment of our conception. He either created them perfect or flawed. If perfect, they were placed in flawed human flesh, in a flawed environment, where the hormone testosterone causes a 17 year old boy to "sin" by having pre-marital sex. Or a brain tumor causes a 50 year old female school teacher to molest one of her 12 year-old-students. Now time has passed and life has left the physical body. If the soul was created flawed, do we blame the product, or the creator? In either case, the soul floats off to be judged. The idea of judging this eternal soul based on biological and environmental factors that influenced the human brain, or worse, judging the soul for what the human brain did or did not BELIEVE, is also, beyond comprehension.

@ Berbs,

How about through the centuries , all those who have told about ghost and spirits of others who have passed away. Some, they knew and the spirit was familiar, some were haunting.

I hate going to funerals, because at some point, I crack up. I feel the spirit of the one who died. I get so tickled, that I have to leave the room or grave site. Usually its at the grave site.

When my step dad died, about a month later he came to me and told me that my mom was about to do something really stupid. I went to tell her about it and she just said, " I know, he came to me too." She was indeed, about to do something stupid and he had warned her as well about the same thing.

I had a brother in law, who had died and we were pretty close. About 6 months after his death, he came to me and asked me to look after his children. He thanked me for a drink of water that I gave him just before he died. When he first came to me, he was searching for his glasses. I thought it was my dad, because that was all I had of him, after he died. But when he thanked me for the water, I realized it was my brother in law. He had very good reason to be concerned for his children.

My point in all this is, we shouldn't brush off these things and try to give a logical reason for them. Why not accept them for what they seem to be, then reason with that. This is why I believe that the good are allowed to hang out for a bit, before they go to their new home.

Question, Why do Jews bury their dead right away? Im really asking, because I don't know.

The reference you ave made for some good reading Bo, but that was about it. Not all claiming to be Christian actually is, as you know. I think this man is only looking for a way out of it

He is not alone, Karl. Beside he and Rob Bell, there are many Christians who do not believe the all-loving and forgiving character of the Christian God could co-exist with a place like Hell. These are Christians who have accepted Jesus in their hearts, and have nothing to gain by rejecting the doctrine of Hell.

As an "outsider" who studies the Bible, I can tell you that in no way is the Hell in which you believe exists is clear. What is clear is that the authors of the different books of the Bible had different views of the afterlife. Even if you insist that these are all "God's Words", you cannot ignore the words of God when he says he will "wipe away every tear" -- not "I will wipe away all the tears of people who accept my son Jesus". You don't think God would lie or exaggerate do you? Do you think he would try to trick us as in, "Well, technically, when people are FRYING in HELL they have no tears because they evaporate before they come out."

One thing I can say, Karl, is that you most likely cannot be worshiping the one true God -- not if your God will allow people to suffer in a place like Hell for eternity. Linda's God is more kind, and therefore more likely to exist.

Yeah I know...this new age thing isn't all there with some of these people. The can believe what they want, just like you, I'll believe what God tells me. As for your comment about me not serving the true God... Well good on you for noticing. Just make sure you get to Him yourself, or you might just be in danger of the Hell you hope don't exist.

Hey Karl I need to ask you a question then, does the brand of Christianity you believe in allow people to sin, even something as horrible as child molesting or murder then turn to Jesus to be saved and they are spared from Hell? Would it say be possible for an horrid person to do horrid things all their lives then when faced with their mortality turn to Jesus with remorse and guilt and be spared from hell?

@ Bo, You said, But let's pretend God did create our "souls" at the moment of our conception. He either created them perfect or flawed. I don't think God created our souls. A soul is a living life, whether animal or human. God breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul. Life is in trees, grass, anything that is alive. The soul of a man is where his emotions are, his personality. God didn't make us with imperfections, we did that ourselves. Our soul is who we are, made by a man and a woman coming together and doing the wild thing. We are formed in the likeness of our parents with flesh and bones and we are a living soul.

Actually, emotions are in the limbic system -- a section of the brain. This is something we know for a fact. We can remove or control emotions by stimulating parts of that section of the brain physically or chemically. Otherwise, explain how excessive alcohol can affect the soul.

As far as personality, there are many factors that account for this. The personality is something that changes, sometimes drastically, over our lifetimes. I know mine has.
Well he made Adam and Eve flawed -- otherwise they would have made the right decision in the Garden, and as a result, we are flawed. So by association, God made us imperfect and flawed, so again, are we to blame for our imperfections? Or is God, our creator, to blame? If you still think we are to blame, explain how a perfectly good, flawless, person could be misled and manipulated, and want to defy God -- unless that action of defiance is perfectly good. Then also explain how we are morally responsible for this decision of Adam and Eve, and why you're at it, how the slaughtering of an innocent man can be seen as a moral payment for my evil.
So you think the "soul" is a result of a material interaction between a sperm and an egg? Which molecules make up the soul? if the soul is not physical, how does a physical reaction create it, if God does not have a direct hand in the process?

Bo, You said,Actually, emotions are in the limbic system -- a section of the brain. This is something we know for a fact. We can remove or control emotions by stimulating parts of that section of the brain physically or chemically. Otherwise, explain how excessive alcohol can affect the soul. OK, This would be in line with what I said about our knowledge, memory all emotions, which none, you can see or are material, stay intact, after death. They might be stored in the brain and that part of the brain can be tinkered with, but it still could be the soul of a person. If you remove the part of the brain that controls emotions, you have pretty much changed the soul of that person. You said, As far as personality, there are many factors that account for this. The personality is something that changes, sometimes drastically, over our lifetimes. I know mine has. To me, this conversation is the difference between science and God. You are giving all the scientific explanation for life and I am giving the spiritual. You can see, touch, feel with your hands and prove your science. Mine, you can't see or feel with hands or prove. But you feel it through your soul, that is your life. You have a body and you have a spirit. I would say that your personality is your soul, the spirit that has ahold of your soul, is who you are. The spirit changes as we change, learn and grow. You said,Well he made Adam and Eve flawed --No he didn't, He gave them free will to choose and the choice they made reflected all human life. otherwise they would have made the right decision in the Garden, and as a result, we are flawed. So by association, God made us imperfect and flawed, so again, are we to blame for our imperfections? We are the result of what the first human life chose for us. Let me ask you something. What if Adam and Eve had obeyed and not taken of the tree of knowledge? Would you and the rest of the world never take of that tree, having free will to do so? You say, God shouldn't have given us that choice? Then we wouldn't have free will. Or is God, our creator, to blame? If you still think we are to blame, explain how a perfectly good, flawless, person could be misled and manipulated, and want to defy God -- unless that action of defiance is perfectly good. Then also explain how we are morally responsible for this decision of Adam and Eve, and why you're at it, how the slaughtering of an innocent man can be seen as a moral payment for my evil. That was the only purpose for that man. You said, So you think the "soul" is a result of a material interaction between a sperm and an egg? Which molecules make up the soul? if the soul is not physical, how does a physical reaction create it, if God does not have a direct hand in the process? egg=life'=living soul. God= spirit=living soul with new life. Satan=spirit=death. We are born in sin because of the first man. God is still giving us the choice to choose. I've lived on both sides of the fence. I would never ever want to exchange what I have now for what I had then.

But you are assuming these things can exist without the human brain, which is like assuming light can exist without a light source.
So if the soul is so easily manipulated by our physical world, why would you think it's eternal destination should be determined by a mere inconceivable fraction of time here on earth?
I am giving the one and only scientific, proven, explanation for these things (not life) and you are making stuff up. Your "spiritual" definition is different than other people's "spiritual" definition. I can make up stuff too -- we all can. This is what makes us creative and unique, but it doesn't make us right.
You are missing the main point -- a perfect being would not make bad choice -- they are only capable of a perfect choice. Does God have freewill? Can he make bad choices? Then why could Adam and Eve, unless they were created flawed. Think about this. The writers of Genesis sure didn't.
What does this mean? Does it seem right to you that God would allow one of your relatives from 6000 years ago to commit a crime for which you are held accountable? Which is this... justice or forgiveness? Or just really bad theology?
According to the story, if they never took from the tree there would be no death. The world today would be piles and piles of trillions of people, plant life, animals, bugs, viruses, etc. But I think your point is, would the next generation eat from the tree. if they were perfect -- no. Imperfection would never be introduced in the human race.
The freewill defense does not hold up unless the being who possesses the freewill is flawed or capable of making bad choices. Otherwise, you have to admit that God is not perfect either and makes bad choices at times -- or that God does not have freewill (and if he doesn't, who is controlling him?).

Think about it.

BO, Why does everything with you have to have a material source? You just can't see anything without scientific logic or proof. Do you know how shallow that is to not see beyond what has already been proven by someone else who had a feeling and pursued to bring it to life. Yes, I know that they exist because I have received knowledge, wisdom, understanding from the very existence that you refuse to understand. You said, So if the soul is so easily manipulated by our physical world, why would you think it's eternal destination should be determined by a mere inconceivable fraction of time here on earth? You see your life as an average of, lets say 80 years. You are the continuation of your parents, they were the continuation of there parents. So how long is our life, really? You have your way of looking at it and I have mine. What makes one way right and the other wrong. I don't think of myself as you think of yourself. I believe Im here for a reason. I believe that I have fulfilled that reason and the time that I have right now, is just my reward after fulfilling a promise. Just like Noah, Jonah, John on his Island. Well, Jonah wasn't the most willing to do the will of God. You said, I am giving the one and only scientific, proven, explanation for these things (not life) and you are making stuff up. Your "spiritual" definition is different than other people's "spiritual" definition. I can make up stuff too -- we all can. This is what makes us creative and unique, but it doesn't make us right. PROVE ME WRONG Who the hell are you Ace, oh, I mean Bo. Who are you to think that your idea of what God should have done or should be, is better then what He gave us. You said, Does it seem right to you that God would allow one of your relatives from 6000 years ago to commit a crime for which you are held accountable? Which is this... justice or forgiveness? Or just really bad theology? Bo, our makeup had to start somewhere. You do have a choice. God even said, choose life or choose death. Do you see what your doing? you are complaining about the hand that was given you for the life that you have, like you could have done a better job in the planning of it. So, this would make you a god, right! You said, According to the story, if they never took from the tree there would be no death. The world today would be piles and piles of trillions of people, plant life, animals, bugs, viruses, etc. But I think your point is, would the next generation eat from the tree. if they were perfect -- no. Imperfection would never be introduced in the human race. BORING You said, The freewill defense does not hold up unless the being who possesses the freewill is flawed or capable of making bad choices. Exactly! Capable of making bad choices. Look at it like a game. Here is God and here is Satan. Both fighting over control as to who is greater then the other. Will the human race on earth prefer to live their lives as God had intended for us, or will they prefer to make their own choices, and when all hell breaks loose, they are on their own to figure it out. But if we choose to seek God and live a Godly life, which society tries to lead us in such a direction, then we can call on Him when we slip or began to fall. He helps us to get back on our feet, to finish our journey through life. Then your children can carry life on through the next generation and teach their children to do the same. Maybe that is what life in eternity is. Think about that!

You have me wrong, Linda. I love to create, imagine, speculate, and "philosophize". But when I do, I admit that I am doing just that. You, on the other hand, use the same kind of speculation and say that it "is", which by the principle of exclusion, means that I, and everyone with a different idea, is WRONG.
So if my great ancestor accepted Jesus, I should be saved? You can't have it both ways. If we are a continuation of our ancestor's lives, then not only are we responsible for their sins, but we must also get a free pass for their acceptance of Jesus.
Nothing! This is great if you accept that we all can have our own philosophy -- as long as it does not conflict with known and proven facts -- and your being right does not make me wrong. But you are completely contradicting yourself and Christian theology. According to YOU and Christian theology, there is only ONE RIGHT WAY -- through Jesus Christ. There is NO other right way. Am I right?

In response to your imaginative musings about how the spiritual world works, I suggested that you were making this up and other people make up their spiritual world as well. Your response was "PROVE ME WRONG". You got me. I can't. If you said the the planted Venus is made of Green cheese, I could not prove you wrong either. So say that -- and then it must be right and reflect reality.
Not sure where that came from. I don't believe that God exists, so this question does not make sense to ask me.
If I am complaining about anything, it is the problematic theology that people believe as fact. I love life and I am grateful for mine with all the good and the bad.

I want to restate my point:

The freewill defense does not hold up unless the being who possesses the freewill is flawed or capable of making bad choices.

I read your response several times and I am convinced that you don't get what I said or you purposely are ignoring it. I will restate clearly:

1) God is a perfect being, with freewill, who is capable of making bad choices, but does not because of his pure goodness and perfection.

2) God created man with the same freewill, but IMperfect and flawed, which is why unlike God, we are not only capable of making bad (immoral, sinful, etc) choices, but we DO make them.

You see my point? God created us to FAIL. If you need more evidence, ask yourself why he placed the forbidden fruit tree in the garden, within walking distance from Adam and Eve.
Really? How weak and pathetic is your God that he cannot snap his spiritual fingers and make Satan go away? Satan exists because people need a scapegoat for what they call "evil", and they sure can't blame it on God.
That is a good way to see life, but when you say "seek God and live a Godly life" others would relplace with

"seek wisdom and live a peaceful life"

"seek truth and live a happy life"

"seek peace of mind and live a productive life"

"seek Allah and live a Godly life"

etc.

A wise, but stubborn lady once told me, You have your way of looking at it and I have mine. What makes one way right and the other wrong.

Bo, You said, If we are a continuation of our ancestor's lives, then not only are we responsible for their sins, but we must also get a free pass for their acceptance of Jesus. I have a blueberry tree growing in my yard. Every year, it bears fruit. As each berry begins to ripen, I inspect it. Those that are bad, I pluck out of the tree, leaving only the good fruit. The tree isn't responsible for the bad fruit, it did its job. Birds, bugs and other outside influences were what corrupted the fruit. Well, I see right now that this isn't going to fly. Your going to say that the bad fruit had no choice or the care taker ( me ) aloud it to happen by not spraying the damn bugs. So, if the fruit could talk and told me the bugs ( evil) was coming at them, then I would have done what ever was necessary to allow the little berry to finish out its growing time and mature into a delicious berry, so that I would be pleased to put it over my cereal and eat it. You said, According to YOU and Christian theology, there is only ONE RIGHT WAY -- through Jesus Christ. There is NO other right way. Am I right? As for coming to God, that is correct. The word of God tells us that it is talking to all Nations all over the world. The Jew and the Gentile. If you are listening to another god, you might as well follow it. But I will follow the God of the Holy Bible. As for my little crack, calling you Ace, was because you sounded as though you thought you could do a better job as God or change what He created. That was so Ace, that I couldn't help myself. You said, God created us to FAIL. If you need more evidence, ask yourself why he placed the forbidden fruit tree in the garden, within walking distance from Adam and Eve. Without the Tree, they wouldn't have choices. Without choices, where is the freewill? Freewill to do what? You said, How weak and pathetic is your God that he cannot snap his spiritual fingers and make Satan go away? Satan exists because people need a scapegoat for what they call "evil", and they sure can't blame it on God. He could Bo. But the tree represents Satan or the knowledge of good and evil. If God snapped his fingers and removed Satan, we would be back to losing our free will. You said, That is a good way to see life, but when you say "seek God and live a Godly life" others would relplace with "seek wisdom and live a peaceful life" "seek truth and live a happy life" "seek peace of mind and live a productive life" These are all the right path to living a godly life and Im sure that those who chose to follow this path, God is well pleased. I love you too!

Hi Berbs,

Its been a while since we've had a chat. If I'm correct you Bo and Adam had a radio debate, must have been awesome. Just now I can't help but think before I give an answer, especially about Hell.

First I have to say, to Bo. When I said ; "or you might just be in danger of the Hell you hope don't exist ".

I really didn't mean to say it in a way that I'd judge that anybody go to Hell or not. I wasn't in a bad spirit but if I had to hear myself say it, my tone should have been nice.

Now Berbs, you ask a difficult question, well at least to me.

God is the only one to say who deserves what. I don't know who goes to heaven or not, just God.

God knows the thoughts of our thoughts, he knows where our true heart lies. If you do something like that (as your question stated) something is wrong. The influences you get can turn you blue.

I don't think we would ever have been allowed to sin, the first man sinned and God kept us. If someone had to do such horrid things all their life that Devil has a hand in it, fallen angels work for him and I believe God sends angels to protect us also.

Even us as man have been given authority to judge among us, so we can tell when someone is really not interested in acknowledging God exists and then say save me sounds false. Even doing such a thing and say you except God exist, only God knows where your heart is, but those who were false, some we know off. Some might have done something terrible, almost horrid, and for years comes clean and has a life changing and the Spirit of God testifies with yours Jesus will be true to His word.

I have done bad thing, I can understand when Paul say he is the worst sinner. My sins might not have been murder, nor have I seen where Paul has traveled. It is just that my true heart is what God want. Jesus is who He said he is, this is a part of me as my hands.

God can change a mans heart and use all things for His Glory.

Romans 8:28! Jesus said that He was given all power by His Father. To believe this to be free from the punishment of eternal fire and be given the free gift of salvation in the afterlife. Even those who claim to know Christ might one day find out they never really served Jesus, never in their true hearts did they serve to seek Jesus in truth and might stand to hear the words ;" I never knew you". But that is for God to know. To some extend we might know with certainty, as God reviles it to us, but some things only God knows, and only God can be the judge of.

I hope I answered your question. In the end were is your heart really when standing in front of God. I believe all who ever recognized the Spirit of God will have a chance,those who out right deny the Spirit might not, but God is the ultimate judge and power has He given to Jesus Christ.Amen

Regarding your tree example... Could a perfect tree bear bad fruit?
When you say "the word of God" you mean "what you beleive is the word of God", don't you? Even Jews don't beleive the NT is the word of God. Plus all other holy books, personal reveleation, etc. etc. You can follow any god you like, but I do hope you at least recognize that people have other gods they follow, that are just as "provable" as yours.
Are you suggesting that either a) choosing from the tree was the only choice they could possibly make or b) before eating of the fruit, they did not have freewill?
So without Satan, we have no freewill? So what happens when Jesus destroys Satan with his sword in his mouth? Are we all robotic slaves to God? You are digging your self in deeper and deeper. It is not your fault -- it is simply what happens when you try to justify orthodox Christian theology.

Bo, You said,Regarding your tree example... Could a perfect tree bear bad fruit? The tree was perfect when it was created, but through the generations of its life, it had taken on some of the dysfunctional qualities of a less perfect tree. Because the tree is planted in an environment of good and bad soil, I would think that if the root were to grow in the direction of the good soil, the tree should produce good fruit. You said, When you say "the word of God" you mean "what you beleive is the word of God", don't you? I mean the Holy Bible, word of God, all the way, the whole book, which leads me to Christ, which leads me to God. Nothing changed or removed. Given enlightenment, through the word, with the Holy Spirit guiding me all the way. You said, Even Jews don't beleive the NT is the word of God. Thats right and the word of God tells you all about it. That is why they are scattered all over the world. But God hasn't forgotten about them, He will bring them back in again. You said, I do hope you at least recognize that people have other gods they follow, that are just as "provable" as yours. I do realize that. Again, the bible tells us about it. But if its not the God of the Holy Bible, it is a strange god. They are being carried away by false spirits. Give me an example of one. Maybe God will let me show you how it isn't the real deal. I said, Maybe! You said, Are you suggesting that either a) choosing from the tree was the only choice they could possibly make or b) before eating of the fruit, they did not have freewill? Absolutely not. They had the choice not to eat of the tree. You have a choice. You either do what your heart tells you, or you do what temptation tells you to do. In Adam, his heart told him not to eat of the tree. He went against his own conviction. You said, So without Satan, we have no freewill? So what happens when Jesus destroys Satan with his sword in his mouth? Are we all robotic slaves to God? You are digging your self in deeper and deeper. It is not your fault -- it is simply what happens when you try to justify orthodox Christian theology. Ahh, I love it when you box yourself in like this. When we make the choice, ( freewill) to follow Christ and He destroys Satan and keeps our path, We made that choice because we chose God rather then Satan. So now we are free indeed. Free to live a wonderful life, without the fury darts of the devil harming us, because we have our protection and armor of the Holy spirit. Hallelujah!

At one point in time, the perfect tree would have to have been given, or have chosen, a less than perfect quality. If they were perfect, the tree would have chosen the perfect quality. If the tree was given the less than perfect quality, it was not the tree's fault.
Let's forget about me... let's stick with Christian theology. So Adam and Eve, perfect beings, made a bad choice to eat from the tree, correct? So they weren't perfect. They were flawed beings who make bad choices. God made them that way. They are not responsible for this.
So SATAN is destroyed? Or destroyed for you, but not for me? So is SATAN a being or the idea of evil? You said...
So SATAN has been removed for you, have you lost your freewill? So I ask again, since God is "fighting over control from Satan", why can't he get do away with Satan once and for all -- like he did for you?

Bo, You said, At one point in time, the perfect tree would have to have been given, or have chosen, a less than perfect quality. If they were perfect, the tree would have chosen the perfect quality. If the tree was given the less than perfect quality, it was not the tree's fault. Perhaps the rain came and washed the good soil away, giving a chance for the weeds and thorns to come up and choke the tree. That would be considered an act of nature exposing the root of the tree, for the elements in the earth to take control of it. If it had a caregiver to take care of it, the care giver would have plucked out the weeds and kept it a perfect tree. You said, Let's forget about me... let's stick with Christian theology Now here is where I fell out of my chair, from laughing so hard. I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote any of this, I promise I wasn't. But you took it to heart and revealed that you have turned away from what was in your heart. If this wasn't so, why would you think that I was talking about you? You must have felt conviction there. Now, don't go and get all defensive. You said, So Adam and Eve, perfect beings, made a bad choice to eat from the tree, correct? So they weren't perfect. They were flawed beings who make bad choices. God made them that way. They are not responsible for this. They had no conscience yet. Only what was in there heart to do or not to do. So, without a conscience, about right and wrong, everything was right for them except this one thing that Adam felt not to do. So here you see freewill, having a choice, innocent as a new born babe. You said, So SATAN is destroyed? Or destroyed for you, but not for me? So is SATAN a being or the idea of evil? Satan is the spirit of anything that opposes the spirit of God. God's spirit is love. Any thing that is country to love, isn't of God. You said, why can't he get do away with Satan once and for all -- like he did for you? Then where would your freewill to choose for yourself be. I made the choice to seek God. He didn't make me or force it on me. It was my decision. Each step closer towards Him that I made, He put in my heart, what He expected of me. Whether it was feeling conviction to remove myself from the friends that I kept company with, or I felt a need to show more compassion towards others, or to have enough faith to put the whole 10% in the offering plate.

Then you cannot blame the tree for an act of nature. The point remains, the tree is not to blame.
I assure you, I did not "take it to heart". We were talking about Adam and then you switched to "You..." When people speak in general terms, they usually use the inclusive "we". Did you forget what you said? You said, (emphasis mine)
So Adam did what he felt not to do... that sounds a lot like conscience to me. Could God do what he feels not right to do? Does he? If he does, he is not perfectly good. If Adam did, God did not create man perfectly good -- he created man flawed. Man is not to blame or to be held accountable.
So God needs Satan, otherwise we cannot "choose him". Correct? So what did you mean when you said, "Here is God and here is Satan. Both fighting over control as to who is greater then the other."?

Bo, You said, Then you cannot blame the tree for an act of nature. The point remains, the tree is not to blame. You can take the tree just so far Bo. You said, We were talking about Adam and then you switched to "You..."As to what I said with using the word ( YOU) it was meant in general. I really wasn't aiming it at you. It was meant in general. You said, So Adam did what he felt not to do... that sounds a lot like conscience to me. A child is told not to touch something, waits and touches it anyway. When told not to touch, I doubt that a conscience came into play. You said, God created man flawed. Man is not to blame or to be held accountable. Nope, God created man in the image of Himself. Nothing but love to dance through the garden and feel all the wonderful emotions that full man with joy, pleasure, peace and and a desire to please. You said, So what did you mean when you said, "Here is God and here is Satan. Both fighting over control as to who is greater then the other."? Oh man, I got to watch every word I say with you. This is what I said, Look at it like a game. Here is God and here is Satan. Both fighting over control as to who is greater then the other. Will the human race on earth prefer to live their lives as God had intended for us, or will they prefer to make their own choices, and when all hell breaks loose, they are on their own to figure it out. God does have a sense of humor by the way. OK, both God and Satan are spirits. A spirit is what causes us to sway one way or another. Can't you get a vision of these two forces pulling at the flesh of humanity. One wanting human life to become the model of love, goodness and kindness to his fellow man and to share heavenly places with Him and the other concerned with power, destruction and all the forces of evil, pain and suffering with him, who is of the earth. Now, who is being stubborn?

Linda, you have attempted, but failed to address the main point:

If God made us perfect, in "his image", then through no possible fault of our own could we have swayed from perfection.

Satan cannot manipulate a perfect person into making a bad decision. Could he manipulate God?

God cannot make a poor choice, so why could the perfect Adam?

God has freewill, and is perfect, and does not make bad decisions. We have freewill, are flawed and make bad decisions. How?

You can give tree analogies all day long, but I know you see the problem here. Perhaps you are afraid to pull out the "God is a mystery" wild card, as you should be. We are not talking about God here, we are talking about the theology used to explain and justify this God -- which does not make sense, and, in every sense of the word, is "absurd".

Can any other Christian jump in here and explain how humans are to blame for our imperfection or not living up to the perfectness of God?

You know, I have to thank you Linda. This post just changed my life, and I'm quite serious. For years I have wondered what I would accept as proof positive that God exists or that what someone believed in was real. I just figured it out.

If someone can ever point to a mountain I choose at random and on the spot, and tell it to get up and relocate to the middle of the prairies or ocean (their choice...I'm generous like that), and it does it...I will be immediately and completely converted.

Now I don't have to lie awake at night wondering what I would accept as proof. (by the way, it will probably be mount everest or mount kilimanjaro but who knows)

For the record, God called Jacob a worm. He was a liar. Lying is evil. Jacob was also a cheat, witness the tricks with sticks and his uncle's cows.



Worm: Isaiah 41:14

Lying: Genesis 27:19 (To his own father for crying out loud!!!)

Tricks with sticks: Genesis 30:35-42

----bonus points for telling his wives that god did it in the next chapter...of course, since the bible is true we have to accept that cut up sticks will determine the colours of the offspring. no way there was some other hanky panky going on behind the scenes...never, not in the holy bible.

1 Crointhians 7:1-4 have been used to teach that masturbation is a sin...at the very least for married men...jus' saying. So at 13 when boys discover hormones, they are probably sinning.....

If they make it to 17 without doing any of that then I think they deserve a get out of hell free card with the girl next door!!!

1Co 7:1





Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

Verse 1 seems to be a reply to an inguiry. Whether it was lawful and expedient.



The apostle did not mean that marriage was unlawful, for he says

Heb_13:4

that "marriage is honorable in all." But he here admits, with one of the parties in Corinth, that it was well, and proper in some circumstances, not to enter into the marriage relation

1Co 7:2



But, because of fornications, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.

I think it is easy and clear what verse 2 is saying. Be faithfull to your spouse. Dont go looking for sex all over the show. Enjoy your husband or your wife.



1Co 7:3



Let the husband render unto the wife her due: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

Marriage is a state of mutual obligations. Each must yield to the other what those obligations require.



Her person belongs to her husband; her husband's person belongs to her.



Now care for each other like you should, why get married if you do not look after your wife/husband's needs.



John, I don't get the mastrubation part in here?



I see answers to what the marriadge should be like. I see that it is good for me as a single man to focus on the things of God and getting my life in tune as best I can. I don't need to have sex or I will die as a human being. Being a single man has some advantages in life you know. God will provide.



But if I am a single man but I just can't seem to control myself. I can't keep myself from wanting to be with a woman I should rather get married. Get married and not fornicate. Once you get started with certain things its like they get a hold on you and you won't get out just like that. Before you know it you have been with 15 men around the block, or you keep having break ups because you don't want to commit with marriadge to her, easy to say I do not want it anymore, it was fun.



Mastrubation is not so much the problem. It is your heart, your thoughts, why you do the act. , Still, the verses was not to me what it is to you. I see no speach of mastrubation here but keeping marriadge good.