This is a new thread started to address a conversation which emerged from a rabbit trail in the Genealogies of Jesus thread. It will discuss whether the Christian concept of a "Trinity" exists in the "Old Testament" (OT for short, or a.k.a. The TaNaKh, or TNK for short).

I am of the firm understanding that "The Trinity" is nowhere found in the Hebrew-based Scriptures from Genesis to Malachi, and emerges in the Christian "New Testament", which is likely an amalgamation from other religions, just like much of Christianity appears to be overall. My first stance on everything-Christian is that it in no way is the "fulfillment of the Old Testament", but these two set of books stand apart not just by time, but theology, prophecy, and the nature of God. The Trinity concept is merely one part of all of this.

Arguments presented by most Christians for the existence of "the Trinity" in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") usually stem from Genesis 1 more than anything else. The most often quoted passages are:

1. "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." (NASB Genesis 1:2)
Here claiming the "Spirit" (Ruach, in the Hebrew) of God (Elohim, in the Hebrew) is a third part of the "Trinity", and since it was hovering over the waters, it was separate from "God" ["the Father"]. The further claim is that since it says "Elohim" in the Hebrew, for "God", and Elohim in the Hebrew is a plural word (in contrast to El or Eloah, which are singular), it means that God is a plurality -- a "Trinity", as unequivocally defined by the Christian Testament [NT].

2. "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth'." (NASB Genesis 1:26)
Here claiming that since God uses the word "us", and assuming nothing else in Heaven or anywhere else can "be like God", God must be talking to himself (i.e. the other parts of the "Trinity") like some crazy 70-year-old man sitting around in the local park.

I would address these false claims and beliefs, which stem from a lack of understanding of Hebrew Grammar, but this has already been eloquently explained by a Jewish Scholar named Nehemia Gordon. He is Jewish, lives in Jerusalem, Israel, is a translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), and has written several books as well. I have placed two papers by him on my website with his permission, and they can be accessed by using the following link:

http://www.seekerofthetruth.org/downloads/lessons/Elohim/



Respectfully Submitted,

- Jim

Linda (a.k.a. LadyAtTheWell) posted a response to this subject in another thread called "The Question of Allah", but I am resposting here, where I think the subject/thread title makes more sense.

________________________________________________________________




and Linda also posted the following:

_____________________________________________________________________James, do you even know what a spirit is? Yahveh is a name the Jews called God, 300 years before Jesus was even born.

Trinity isn't mentioned until the New Testament, after Jesus Resurrection.

The Holy Ghost or Spirit is the energy that we receive that completes us with the Father and Son. It's the spirit of Christ living in our mortal bodies, changing us into spiritual bodies.

That same Spirit opens our eyes, circumcises our hearts, brings new life and awareness into our being. It feeds us with revelations, wisdom and knowledge that comes from God.

He humbles us, removes all desire to sin from us, reveals God and His glory through us.

We become sons and daughters of God.

@ Linda,
My point about the devil was that I would presume from your other comments on the website that you would not read with a serious mindset the writings of Nehemia Gordon, since he is Jewish and you believe anyone who maintains a Jewish mindset is blinded by the "devil". That's the extend of which I've incorporated "the devil" into this conversation, nothing more. )

Linda said: "The only point that you seem to be making is, you or the Jews have another name for God."

Since you are not understanding, I'd like to clarify:

1. My point with all this was not focused on the name of God, but instead, whether or not the Trinity exists in the Tanakh (whereas it is an abundantly clear presence in the Christian Testament (the NT)).

2. The Jews do have a different name for their God, which is YHWH (Yehovah). The Christians have "The Father" (no name) as well as "The Son" (name exists: Jesus), and "The Holy Spirit" (no name, even though you're supposed to be baptized in the Name of the Spirit [see: Matthew 28:19]). Three gods for Christianity, though defined by them as being "one" in a "trinity", and truly only one God for the Jews (i.e. see Deuteronomy 6:4).

3. I do not have a name for God/Gods/Higher Power/Universe, etc. It could be anything -- singular, plurality, the universe in general, or no God whatsoever. I don't know what "is", which is why I am Agnostic, as you can see from my profile. I lack privileged information about God. But of the information that is available, I can clearly see Christianity cannot be the Truth of the "spiritual realm", nor any other religion I've thus encountered/researched (which is comprised primarily of the "Abrahamic Faiths" so far.) So once again, I don't say God has a different name that what Christianity ascribes; I say, there is no way we can know if God has a name, or who that God is, based on the information available to us now/here/today.

As I've stated a few times here on this website so far (and am stating again now), my position of debate from the Jewish scriptures is to show the disparities between Judaism and Christianity, so that if there is any hope for Christians to see their scriptures are man-made, it would come from seeing that the claims made within the Christian ["new"] Testament are not fulfillments of the Tanakh (read: "Old Testament"). They are man-made, new religious texts emerging at that time, just like Islam was 600 years later.

Regarding the other comments you made...

Linda said: "I am a little confused. First the writings of Nehemia Gordon, speak about your god, Elohim. Then he tells about the we, us, our and relates to this as YHWH. So, which god is the god that you worship? Also, I agree with the explanation of God speaking to His Angels when referring to the we, Us, Our."

1. You wouldn't be confused if you have read my statements. The "god that I worship" is an ambiguous/unknown god or force which I can neither prove, nor would I try to. Further, I have no evidence this "god" or "force" has any stipulated rules for humanity to abide by, and thus would not try to proselytize you to my faith and get you to obey the God/Force of this Universe, nor would I attempt to convince you that you will suffer eternal torment with no possibility of escape for not knowing and/or believing this God/Force is real. I hope that clarifies my beliefs somewhat more.

2. Your confusion regarding what Nehemia Gordon is talking about stems, I believe, from losing focus of the topic at hand -- the existence of the Trinity in the Tanakh (read: "Old Testament"). The claim by Christianity is that the "Trinity" can be clearly seen in the Tanakh, but the Jews simply reject God for who he is. Their attempts to substantiate these claims stem from words such as "elohim", "we", "us", "our", etc. This is why I pointed you and others to the documents written by Nehemia Gordon.

3. You said "my god" is "Elohim". And thus say that I have limited God by that "name", and aver that you simply refer to God as "God", and thus do not limit God. My response to that is many-fold:

• My "God" is not referred to as "Elohim", though in some sense of the literal definition of the word, I guess it is. However, I must point out strongly that based on the statements you have made on this website, I can see no other possibility to define your "spirituality" other than you are Christian. Nevertheless, if you simply refer to God as "God" (thus, not limiting him to a name, even though that's what Christianity does, to which you do adhere, correct?), then you should know that the HEBREW word Elohim literally means either "God" or "gods" when translated into the english. Thus, I don't see how you somehow separate in your mind that calling God, "God", is different than calling God, "Elohim". They are one in the same! (And btw, "Elohim" is not a name of God; it is a description.)
• Since you are Christian, even though your profile says Spiritual, you do believe the name of God is Jesus, or at the very least ,the same name as the one provided in the Jewish scriptures -- YHWH. You use Christian scripture to support your position, even in your second post in this debate-thread, thus accept it as truth. Since you believe in the Christian god, you define and thus limit God by that definition, regardless of whether you admit that or not. "Elohim", as mentioned above, is not the "name of God", like you stated. You asked me earlier, what is it that you need to learn. Well, this is one of MANY things. You said God had many names in the Tanakh ("Old Testament" -- "OT"), but this is not true. He had many titles, to be sure, such as El Shaddai -- "God Almighty". But only has one name. I think it is important to point out that given how small and simple the Hebrew language is, it should be fairly significant that there are three words for "God" -- El, Eloah, and Elohim. The first two being singular terms, and the last being plural, except where used to depict supremacy, such as with YHWH. El = God, Shaddai = Almighty. Things such as this are titles, but not names. So then, what is God's name, according to the Tanakh? A look at Exodus 3:15 reveals this to us:
  
  "God [Elohim], furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, '[YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (NASB translation)
  
  In the TNK (Tanakh), God (Elohim) had many titles / descriptions, but only one name. And that should be all the more significant to you, since God's name, YHWH, is written nearly 7,000 times in the Tanakh (though not a single time in the Christian New Testament).
  
  So your statement that God (in the TNK) has always been known by many names, does not hold up to textual scrutiny, as far as I can see.

Nevertheless, all this goes back to the original point, and that is, the "Trinity" doesn't exist in the Tanakh, but only in the Greek scriptures -- the Christian New Testament.

With that in mind, one must pay attention to the vivid words in Deuteronomy 13 where God (YHWH) says that if anyone comes along and introduces them to new gods -- gods which they have not known (i.e. "Jesus" and the "Holy Spirit" -- the "Trinity"), to stay away from those people -- they will be put to death for what they are saying / doing, yet this is all a test by YHWH to see if his people really love him.

Deut 13:1 If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
Deut 13:2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'
Deut 13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for [YHWH] your God is testing you to find out if you love [YHWH] your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deut 13:4 "You shall follow [YHWH] your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him."

Since there was no Trinity in the "Old Testament" and these two new "gods" were introduced -- God-head partisans of the Trinity which the Jews have not known -- they were expected (demanded) by YHWH (God) to reject them. Since God (YHWH) made that stipulation and clarification, they only way you can justify Christianity is to say that God is the epitome of all evil -- malevolent. Otherwise, Christianity is merely a Test by YHWH to see if his people truly love him, and will continue to cling to him, and him alone, and a test to make sure they will not chase after these other gods. All those who do go after these other gods of Christianity (or any others) not only violate Torah, but will be rejected by God (YHWH). And based on the Christianity-based definitions of "hell", that reaps a pretty hefty punishment for you and others who adhere to Christianity!!

I hope this helps clarify the Trinity issue, especially in regard to the disparity between Judaism and Christianity, and the fact that if you accept the Tanakh ("Old Testament") as the Word of God, then you are, in essence, condemning yourself if you also accept the Christian gods depicted in the Christian [New] Testament.

R/s,

- Jim

Linda said,James, do you even know what a spirit is? Yahveh is a name the Jews called God, 300 years before Jesus was even born.

Trinity isn't mentioned until the New Testament, after Jesus Resurrection.

The Holy Ghost or Spirit is the energy that we receive that completes us with the Father and Son. It's the spirit of Christ living in our mortal bodies, changing us into spiritual bodies.

That same Spirit opens our eyes, circumcises our hearts, brings new life and awareness into our being. It feeds us with revelations, wisdom and knowledge that comes from God.

He humbles us, removes all desire to sin from us, reveals God and His glory through us.

We become sons and daughters of God.





Thanks, but do keep in mind that I grew up Christian, so have heard these definitions, among many others. I am not unfamiliar with what you're saying here.

But in any case, you did admit here the Trinity is not in the Tanakh (i.e. You said, "The Trinity isn't mentioned until the New Testament, after Jesus' Resurrection." Thus, you must then also admit the problem you have, if you are being completely honest, which comes-about based on Deuteronomy 13, as I mentioned in my most previous post in this thread.

R/s,

- Jim

p.s. I don't know where you get "Yahveh" for the name of God in the Tanakh.

I swear, school is throttling me--no time to do this anymore...

My christian is, does the trinity exist in the New testament?



If God is JEsus and the Holy Ghost than they are one.



I may be a son, nephew, and cousin, but that doesnt me there are three seperate me's or three seperate personalities I use for each role.





PS: How is it Jesus is god? When the greek gods got a human pregnant, it made a demigod. So how is it Jehovah can make a baby with a human and make himself (unless jesus is a clone, which I would still argue is a differant person?

@ JamesP. OK, I read all that this person has written and agree with everything that he said. You said, 1. "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." (NASB Genesis 1:2) Here claiming the "Spirit" (Ruach, in the Hebrew) of God (Elohim, in the Hebrew) is a third part of the "Trinity", and since it was hovering over the waters, it was separate from "God" ["the Father"]. The further claim is that since it says "Elohim" in the Hebrew, for "God", and Elohim in the Hebrew is a plural word (in contrast to El or Eloah, which are singular), it means that God is a plurality -- a "Trinity", as unequivocally defined by the Christian Testament [NT]. This is not right. God is a Spirit. When my spirit feels troubled, I am speaking about that spirit that is in me, which is me. My spirit isn't separated from me, it's what defines me. You said, 2. "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth'." (NASB Genesis 1:26) Here claiming that since God uses the word "us", and assuming nothing else in Heaven or anywhere else can "be like God", God must be talking to himself (i.e. the other parts of the "Trinity") like some crazy 70-year-old man sitting around in the local park. God is speaking to the Angels, who are spirits as well. Spirits evidently knew the difference between good and evil. When God created man, he must not have wanted man to know about this difference. He made man to enjoy what He created with all the innocence of an unborn child. He never wanted us to feel guilt, hurt, pain, suffering. The US that God was speaking to must have been only good, for God wanted to make man in His image and God's image is only good. The tree represents both good and evil. Once they took of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they became aware of the evil that spoke to Eve, enticing her to go against Gods will. God had to deal with those evil spirits throughout the OT. The curse that God put on Adam and Eve, actually took effect from the time of the beginning of the NT. There was no Trinity until after Jesus death. God, who is the Father and is a Spirit, Jesus, man born of flesh by the woman ( remember the curse that God gave Eve.) God ( Spirit) living in him. After death of the flesh, the spirit of the flesh, which is now, Holy, because of God, which is spirit, Jesus now spirit, because of death. Father, Son and holy Ghost. They are all one and the same. God told the serpent that he would eat dust all the days of his life, what was man made of? Where do men get the desire to sin or do evil? Isn't it from the gut.( Belly) So the serpent survives through the life of men and women. Now God says to Satan, God( spirit) will cause hatred between the woman and the spirit of evil. Between all living through her seed and all that is evil ( Satan's spirit, seed) This curse couldn't have even taken place until God was ready for it to happen. It was told about throughout the OT, but didn't began until God put His spirit into Mary, who gave birth to a son, who grew up and at the age of 30, God came down in the form of a Dove and infilled Jesus. So now we have man in the flesh walking in the earth, with God ( spirit) living inside of him. All those of her seed, ( having God) will hate the seed of Satan ( evil) . Praise God!

As for Deuteronomy, These are the commands that God gave to the Israelites, who Had the oracles of God.
I don't know either, I think I copied it from something you wrote.

@ JamesP, You said, Nevertheless, if you simply refer to God as "God" (thus, not limiting him to a name, even though that's what Christianity does, to which you do adhere, correct?), then you should know that the HEBREW word Elohim literally means either "God" or "gods" when translated into the english. Thus, I don't see how you somehow separate in your mind that calling God, "God", is different than calling God, "Elohim". They are one in the same! (And btw, "Elohim" is not a name of God; it is a description.) As for my being Christian, yes I am. I believe in the Word of God, I believe that God walked in the earth through the flesh of man. I don't stand by any religion other then what Paul describes. I believe in God. No Idol of Him, no vision of any form of Him, but claim to know when His spirit is moving in or around me. I know what He expects of me. I know when He's disappointed with me. I know the difference of when its me who is in control or when He is in control of me. I have no problem with you calling God, Elohim. I am not Jewish and never felt inclined to call God any other name, so thank you, but I will stay with what feels right to me. As for the rest of this post, I think I pretty well covered all that you have here, in another post. You know James, I feel that you are sitting right on the edge of sleep and just a light push will flip on the light in your being. You come off aggressive and like a know it all, But I think its just your thirst for God that causes you to appear that way. You have all the knowledge to make a excellent teacher, but seek inside your heart for what is missing. You said, "Elohim" is not a name of God; it is a description.) Spirit isn't a name either, its what it is. I guess its kinda like the chicken or the egg, which came first. A spirit is what comes from something that was alive, but now dead. Then the spirit. Thats more then I want to know. lol You said,Since you are Christian, even though your profile says Spiritual, you do believe the name of God is Jesus, or at the very least ,the same name as the one provided in the Jewish scriptures -- YHWH. You use Christian scripture to support your position, even in your second post in this debate-thread, thus accept it as truth. Since you believe in the Christian god, you define and thus limit God by that definition, regardless of whether you admit that or not. No, I don't think of Jesus as God. I think of Jesus with God, having the same spirit as God. Jesus was a man born of the flesh, having had to die to become the Holy Spirit of God, making the three as one. I believe what my bible tells ME, Not what a religion that adheres to Christian doctrine believe. They leave to much of the truth out. They take a sinner just so far and no further. They don't teach enough about the spiritual, which, how can one understand God if they don't understand spiritual? You said, All those who do go after these other gods of Christianity (or any others) not only violate Torah, but will be rejected by God (YHWH). And based on the Christianity-based definitions of "hell", that reaps a pretty hefty punishment for you and others who adhere to Christianity!! So, according to this, God is simply a dictator, telling us to live by His rules and do as He says and if we do anything other then what is written in the book of the laws, we are doomed. Well, I got to tell ya, I don't think I would care to live my life like that. That would be pure hell in its self. I thank MY God for being real, alive and working in me, not just telling me how to live through words in a book. In the love of God, Linda

Perhaps this will help eleberate my confusion (parody, younger man is jesus, older man is god, or there both god and not)



Christianity is a polytheistic religion!

Josh,

This video is great! I had to re-post it. Even Christians should find it funny. It's done very well.

Thanks Josh,

Your two man show sucked up 6 min. of my megabites. It was funny though.

@ Linda,

Thanks for your posts. Some of what you said didn't make sense to me (i.e. didn't seem relevant, such as your statement that the Torah was given to the Jews who were the Oracles of God. Perhaps you can elaborate more on what your point was with that. Meanwhile, my point still stands, that the New Testament in no way can be a replacement, upgrade, or "next phase" for "God's plan" if the Tanakh / O.T. is the initial phase of it. They are not cohesive as a storyline.

In any case, I think I may be beginning to somewhat understand your personal religion (which is still a sect of Christianity, being based of their scriptures) and beliefs. Though I will say there is still contradiction within your own beliefs (Based on what you posted) and also contradiction to what the Christian scriptures state.Please allow me to elaborate.

From what I understand, you have the following beliefs (and please correct me if I'm wrong): [*]Before the New Testament, God (YHWH) and his Spirit (Ruach) are not two separate entities, but are one-in-the-same. [*]The Trinity emerged with the advent of the New Testament, though your description still makes it sound like a duality, where God the Father and Jesus are both sharing the same Spirit, as One in Spirit, yet are separate entities. (If I misunderstood what your thoughts are on this subject, please let me know.) [*]If this is a Duality, then there is one singular God in the Tanakh prior to the NT (which coincides with some of your comments). If this is a Trinity (God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit) all as One, yet as Separate entities / "job roles" within the God-head, then you must declare that God and Spirit are also not one-in-the-same, but are separate entities in the God-head as well, and therefore there was a Duality in the Tanakh up until Jesus came in the New Testament, at which time the Trinity came-about. Please help me to understand whether you are saying there was a Duality in the Tanakh and Trinity in the NT, or whether you are saying there was a Singularity in the Tanakh, with a Duality in the New Testament. [*]Either of these beliefs are certainly different from Mainstream Christianity, and do not 100% jive with the New Testament (or the Tanakh). But I understand I may not understand your beliefs. If you could articulate it more clearly, that may help me (and possibly others too).

If however you are saying that a new form of God emerged with the New Testament (whether it was simply Jesus, or the combination of Jesus and the Holy Spirit), which did not exist in the Tanakh and/or was not known by the Jews in the Tanakh, then I still go back to Deuteronomy 13 to show that there is no way that Christianity could be in any way a plan of the God of the Tanakh -- YHWH.

Deut 13:1 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, "
Deut 13:2 "and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' "
Deut 13:3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for [YHWH] your God is testing you to find out if you love [YHWH] your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

If you say this was only to the Jews; keep in mind that you would say the Jews are of the devil for rejecting Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God, even though they are new gods which they had not known, thereby obeying the Torah which God (YHWH) gave them. So how can you or anyone else condemn them for obeying God? Even God cannot do that (but apparently does in the Greek-based New Testament).



Jesus didn't exist before the New Testament?

You said that you only align yourself with what the Bible says, and yet claim that Jesus did not exist before the New Testament. Not only does mainstream Christianity disagree with you (which you admit, and relish in, since they are "a religion" and your beliefs, according to you, are beyond religion), but the Christian scriptures disagree with you as well.

In the passage below, we see this thing called "The Word" was not only In The Beginning (i.e. in Genesis, long before the New Testament times), and not only was with God, but it explicitly states "The Word" WAS God!

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. "
John 1:2 "He was in the beginning with God. "
John 1:3 "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

So then the question would be, who or what is this "Word" the gospel of John is speaking of? And that is defined just a few verses later, actually...

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

The entire chapter of John 1 vividly elaborates on the point that Jesus is not only with God, but actually is God, and that he was there from the foundations of the world, and as John 1:3 says: "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.", thus showing that JESUS actually is responsible for the formation/creation of the Heavens and the Earth -- everything that has come into being!

So your argument that Jesus didn't exist before the New Testament falls apart according to the New Testament. (Though the Tanakh would agree with you, which is my next point...



Jesus was created in the New Testament?

So a new god, or entity within the God-head, (or two, if you include the Holy Spirit) engendered with the advent of the New Testament, but didn't exist prior to that? Not only is this one of my main arguments (which you are agreeing with, and thus substantiating everything I'm saying), but it proves the Jews are right and you are wrong, according to Deuteronomy 13, among other things.

What are these other things?

How about what God (YHWH) said in the Tanakh, such as...

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares [YHWH], "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. "
Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am [YHWH], And there is no Savior besides Me."

~ or this one ~

Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been [YHWH] your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me."

In these passages, God, in the Tanakh, is saying there will never be another god formed after him (just like there is no god formed before him). Combine this with Deuteronomy 13 saying that God's people were not to accept or chase after any other gods which they have not known (and, YHWH is the one and only God they have known -- Deuteronomy 6:4), and you can see how with the creation of Jesus (and, possibly the Holy Spirit, according to you -- I'm still not sure your position on this), that the entirety of Christianity cannot be anything else other than a Test by YHWH (God) to see if his people truly love Him with all their hearts, minds, souls, and strength (Deut. 13:3).

Summary:

I agree with you the Trinity concept comes into play in the Christian Testament, and is not in the Tanakh whatsoever. Unlike you though, I see what God of the Tanakh said, and in no way can accept that the Christian Testament is a next phase of the Tanakh. I do not accept that is being the case according to Truth, and even in the realm of mythology I do not see this as being something created by the Jews, as a "next chapter" for their current line of books. It is not cohesive textually or theologically.



I know you wouldn't care to live your life like that; that's why you don't!

But here's the deal Linda:
If someone is seeking God with all of their heart -- their entire heart, mind, soul, and strength -- and not willing to settle for anything less than the ultimate Truth, one has to also be willing to realign themselves with the evidence, rather than twist around what they find to fit their desires. You obviously have been re-aligning yourself a bit, as you stated before that you were Southern Baptist, then Pentecostal, and now something else. In that much I applaud you, and can to some degree identify with you, as these are generally not easy transitions for anyone who truly believes in them as the truth. So based on what you've shared about your past, I do see that you are willing to consider the evidence and re-align yourself with what you believe is true.

My main concern for you is that you've built your foundation on texts that are not valid, and then brought yourself to a place where you no longer rely on them ultimately, so they could be disproven, yet you would retain that belief system that stemmed from them in the first place. If the texts are disproven to be authentic / valid, then any beliefs built upon them are also no longer valid / authentic, and one must re-evaluate everything, and re-position themselves (again, if they are seeking God with their whole heart).

So, if we can see that YHWH did not allow for this new thing called Christianity, and it is simply a test by him, I think (or at least, would hope) you would agree that it doesn't matter what we want or what we desire. God is God, and thus commands everything in existence. So it is up to him if we obey a rigid set of rules. You may not like to "live your life like that", but ultimately, if that's what God says/wants/expects, then us as human beings ultimately are subjugated to him and can't do anything about it. Sure, you could rebel, but we all know what the punishment of that is...

If you wouldn't want to live that life, then what you're clearly telling us is that you are heavily biased, and finding a god that you like, who lets you live the life that you would like to live, rather than aligning yourself with what the scriptures say God is and what God wants, which would be a more humble thing to do. Do you pick the god you want, so you can live the life you want to live? Based on the things you're saying, I must conclude yes. For you have rejected the God of the Tanakh based on the fact that "it is not the type of life you would like to live", and your further comment that you thank "YOUR" God for "being real", thus indicating your God (the Trinity --- Father, Son, Spirit) of the Christian Testament is real, but the God of the Tanakh (singular, YHWH) is fake. (Yet the Christian Testament says he is real, and your other comments have also indicated that.)

Linda, I'm sad for you, because you contradict yourself left and right. I think you care more about "being the one who knows everything" and in "being right", as well as "living a life that you want to live, with the God who says you can do it that way", rather than aligning yourself with who God really is.

Ultimately, you can do what you want, because this is all mythology. The problem I have is Christianity saying people have to abide by their rules, when they cannot even substantiate their own scriptures, from which they derive (at least most of) these rules.

I sincerely hope you will be able to see the Truth. But if you don't, it won't be the end of the world.

Best wishes,

- Jim

I will add I read a book once that argued from a Duality perspective for the Bible. He was a Messianic Jewish adherent, though did not agree with any of the specific denominations within the "Messy Antics" movement. He believed God the Father and the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) were one-in-the-same, no difference, no separation, by any means or definition of the word. This is why, he argued, that The Father and Jesus (the Son) each have a throne in Heaven according to the B'rit Hadashah (New Testament), yet there is no throne for the "Holy Spirit". It is also why blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only unpardonable sin in the New Testament, whereas blasphemy of the Son can be forgiven -- (Because blasphemy of the Father is much worse). He also argued that the Spirit had no name, because it was the same as "the Father" -- YHWH, whereas the Son's name was Jesus. There were other examples he gave as well.

He believed that God the Father, in essence, was a Hermaphrodite, containing both genders - male and female (which is what adam was made in the image of, but then woman was taken out of man, separating them into two beings), and God basically procreated/begot Jesus (Yeshua) from himself (based on his male/female duality in himself). Thus Jesus (Yeshua) was the lesser deity, and there truly is only One God of the Jews, as the Shema (Deut. 6:4) states.

The name of the book was, "Epidemic: Examining the Infected Roots of Judaism and Christianity" by "Dr." Russ Houck.

This, at least to some degree, sounds similar to what Linda is supporting based on her comments, but I may be wrong about this. It is mostly the concept of the Duality between God the Father and the Spirit that brings me to this conclusion.

In any case, this book was one of the poorest examples of scholarship I have ever personally witnessed. Many quotes were given without any attempt at citation, and ones that definitely should've had it, as they are many times a bit off the wall. The conclusions being drawn up based on the texts were unfounded, especially for someone that supposedly has a doctorates degree in theology -- it was evident this author had little experience and knowledge, though he touted his long reign of studying and experience, as often the most unscholarly types tend to do. It was so bad, he had to self-publish; this book cannot even be found on Amazon or elsewhere.

His facebook fan page has 16 fans:

[url=https:/www.facebook.com/pages/Epidemic-Examining-the-Infected-Roots-of-Judaism-and-Christianity-by-Dr-Russ-Houck/120302154677908]https:/www.facebook.com/pages/Epidemic-Examining-the-Infected-Roots-of-Judaism-and-Christianity-by-Dr-Russ-Houck/120302154677908[/url]

But hey, maybe he's just one of the few who actually find the narrow gate who will get into Heaven, and the rest of us are simply accursed? (Matthew 7:13-14)

In any case, it to some degree sounds like what you're saying and possibly believe similar to, which is why I mention it. Perhaps you would like that book. =)

visit Mrdeity.com, its an entire series of short episodes; also avialble on itunes, all free.

Is the doctrine of the trinity found in the Old Testament, not is full manner. Their are shadows and glimpse of the Trinity within the Old Testament.

The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. Nevertheless, it is a word used to describe one fact the Bible teaches about God: Our God is a Trinity. This means there are three persons in one God, not three Gods. The persons are known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and they have all always existed as three distinct persons. The person of the Father is not the same person as the Son. The person of the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. The person of the Holy Spirit is not the same person as the Father. If you take away any one, there is no God. God has always been a trinity from all eternity: "From everlasting to everlasting, You are God," (Psalm 90:2).

God is not one person who took three forms, i.e., the Father who became the Son, who then became the Holy Spirit. This belief is known today as the "Jesus Only Movement (also known as Oneness Pentecostalism)". It is taught by the United Apostolic and United Pentecostal churches, and is an incorrect teaching.

Nor is God only one person as the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Way International, and the Christadelphians teach (These groups are classified as non-Christian cults). For proof that there is more than one person in the Godhead, see the Plurality Study.

The Bible says there is only one God. Yet, it says Jesus is God (John 1:1,14); it says the Father is God (Phil. 1:2); and it says the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are distinct persons. Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He is a distinct person. There is one God who exists in three persons.

The following chart should help you understand how the Trinity doctrine is derived.

T H E T R I N I T Y

Father Son Holy Spirit

Called God Phil. 1:2 John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9 Acts 5:3-4
Creator Isaiah 64:8; 44:24 John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17 Job 33:4, 26:13
Resurrects 1 Thess. 1:10 John 2:19, 10:17 Rom. 8:11
Indwells 2 Cor. 6:16 Col. 1:27 John 14:17
Everywhere 1 Kings 8:27 Matt. 28:20 Psalm 139:7-10
All knowing 1 John 3:20 John 16:30; 21:17 1 Cor. 2:10-11
Sanctifies 1 Thess. 5:23 Heb. 2:11 1 Pet. 1:2
Life giver Gen. 2:7: John 5:21 John 1:3; 5:21 2 Cor. 3:6,8
Fellowship 1 John 1:3 1 Cor. 1:9 2 Cor. 13:14; Phil. 2:1
Eternal Psalm 90:2 Micah 5:1-2 Rom. 8:11; Heb. 9:14
A Will Luke 22:42 Luke 22:42 1 Cor. 12:11
Speaks Matt. 3:17; Luke 9:25 Luke 5:20; 7:48 Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2
Love John 3:16 Eph. 5:25 Rom. 15:30
Searches the heart Jer. 17:10 Rev. 2:23 1 Cor. 2:10
We belong to John 17:9 John 17:6
Savior 1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 4:10 2 Tim. 1:10; Titus 1:4; 3:6
We serve Matt. 4:10 Col. 3:24
Believe in John 14:1 John 14:1
Gives joy John 15:11 John 14:7
Judges John 8:50 John 5:21,30

OK so this is my first time posting to this site and I am only doing so because I am currently writing an essay on the arguments for an against the existance of the Trinity in Genesis. I find it hard to believe that I was able to find a refernce to the Trinity in the first book of the bible with only a little research but haven't seen much mention of it on this thread (my apologies for those of you who have mentioned it). But just to clarify the point in I found this references:

Gen 1:26- "Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Now I would assume that some would argue that this use of "us" and "our" is a dialogue between God and angels , however, we were not created in the likeness of angels and angels do not share the image or likeness of God. Not trying to be rude with this post, but this reference seemed pretty convincing and irrefutable.

Hello Ehrin and welcome.

It is quite well-accepted by OT scholars that early Judaism was based on polytheism. The "OUR" in Genesis is actually referring to the many gods, not the Christian trinity which was not worked out until hundreds of years after the time of Jesus.

There is quite a bit of strong evidence for this early polytheism, the strongest and most convincing presented by Biblical scholar, Margaret Barker, in her book, "The Great Angel".

Those who ignore what the Bible really is -- a collection of 66 books, and insist it is one unified history/science book written by the one true God, will not be able to comprehend that each author had his (perhaps her) own theology that came across in the writings.

Admittedly, it is not difficult to confuse the concept of the Trinity with polytheism, since virtually all mentions of multiple gods can be seen as "the Trinity", yet the opposite is not true.

One has to ask, why is it that perhaps one of the most important Christian doctrines is not explained, not even mentioned, in the Bible?

Hi and welcome EhrinKoenig, I believe the "us" is the spiritual presence with God. God's desire has always been for mankind to become as He is. I don't see how the Trinity could have been, until the death and resurrection of Christ. What is the Holy Ghost? Isn't it a spirit, a ghost. Doesn't someone have to die to become a ghost? God, ( the very beginning of us. ) Son, (God living in the heart of man) Holy Ghost, The spirit of that man who is the Son, which is God. It is said that Jesus was with God in the beginning. This had to be the spirit that was in Jesus, that it is speaking of. Its the spirit of man that becomes, the image of God.