Is it possible that both God and Science created the universe?

God desired a world with life in it. Science can't understand what it can't see, so they simply say it was a Big Bang! It could have been a big bang, but it was caused by God's spirit moving over the waters that already existed surrounding the lifeless earth.

When the story was told, it was man who told it, through the spirit of God working through him. He didn't understand that God is timeless. Perhaps on day one, ( night before day) while man slept, God gave him the vision and man called it the first day of what that vision was.

Have faith in God and He will reveal everything to you in your time!

Linda Williams wrote:
Faith without facts is for fools.

Regards
DL

Life without God is a wasted life and short of God's full potential for you.

James wrote:
Umm, no. Science is not an agent, as in a creator. Are you by any chance implying the natural process of Nature?

Linda Williams wrote: This is false. Linda, you should watch the video I left for Brandon on Good vs Bad Explanations.
Is God incapable of doing anything himself? This "through man" idea is a cop-out.

Just utter these words "God wills it!" and crazy people will do crazy things like kill in the name of this invisible creature. Imagine that, god needing men to kill other men.

Linda Williams wrote:
Are you living your full potential right now? Is your current life the fullest God has to offer you?

Linda Williams wrote:


Are 9 million babies per year who starve or die of preventable causes living their lives without God?

Oh wait. That is man's doing. God just watches.
Would you do like your God does and just watch?

Regards
DL

I like the way some theist will tell you that they have questioned all the concepts of their theology, yet they end up beleiving that water will part on command and a God would end human sacrifice with just one last one for the Gipper.

Ridiculous.

Regards
DL

hm, what i find ridiculous is that you seem to suggest that there is only one result possible when questioning things, meaning rejecting what you believed in before... in that case you have neither really questioned your beliefs too it would seem....

on the topic, did God and science created the world. in my opinion God created the world in which science is possible and in which science makes sense. it has been mentioned before and there is much to be said for the view that science is not an agent. Science is only describing things and processes, it tells how it works, and is in itself not creative (inventions are then, man using the descriptions to create, it is man who creates, not science itself).

God created the worlds is dogma and opinion. Not fact or knowledge.

Scriptures say that all that God creates is perfect and created for his pleasure.

Do you see that perfection all about you?

What pleasure does creating evil give God?

Regards
DL

Fair enough. But then I'm asking you: If science is, by definition, concerned only with facts and knowledge, what gives scientists the authority to make judgements on dogmas, ethical values, belief systems, philosophical and theological issues, etc.? Why don't they stick to the domain of science (facts and knowledge)?

Fiona Harris wrote:
The same right as believers have. They see good where any thinking man sees evil. That is the only difference except that the average non-believer knows more about religions than the average believer.

IOW, non-believers are better qualified to evaluate religions than those within them. Less bias.

Seems to me that if believers want non-believers to stop trying to protect the better thinkers in society and the standards of excellence in learning that are in place, they should stop trying to get creation teachings in schools.

Regards
DL

"God created the worlds is dogma and opinion. Not fact or knowledge."
indeed, but all other explanations of the world coming into being aren't facts or knowledge either. one can believe in one explanation fe God, or in another fe multiverse, but none of those are fact or knowledge, IOW the thesis that God created the universe has the same value as others (when it comes to knowledge).

"The same right as believers have. They see good where any thinking man sees evil. That is the only difference except that the average non-believer knows more about religions than the average believer."
i wouldn't dare to say that the average non-believers "knows" more about religions than the average believer... hard to say, depends which your sources are, Richard Dawkins is not a source of knowledge on Christianity fe. o and that "they see good where any tinking man sees evil" well, i often get the impression that atheists see evil where eany thinking man sees good.

"IOW, non-believers are better qualified to evaluate religions than those within them. Less bias." this one actually makes me laugh. Less Bias? are you really serious? it seems to me that atheist have so much prejudices about religion that they are at least biassed at the same level as religious people, if not more biassed.


when it comes to creationism. the term 'creation' is a very broad one, even science teaches the big bang, a creation event. ok they do not say God was behind it, but a creation after all. I for myself do not believe the young-earth creationist that say that the world was created in 6 days some 6000 years ago (i suppose you meant this interpretation, but there are other interpretations too). I believe that evolution is true (yes as a believer, as evolution is in fact not contradictory to Gods existence) it seems to me that arguing against young earth creationism is so easy. so why not give young people thinking tools in school, and teach it in schools, let people decide for themselves what is the most convincing. it seems to me that evolution will prevail, in fact i do not understand what the fear is of atheists to teach the different theories in school, the way they battle against it is like the middle ages church condemned other views and so on, in order to preserve their truth...

Atheists are not interested in having their children believing or being taught theories that include fantasy, miracles and magic and a God that will give them endless purposeless torture if they do not believe.

You do not see atheists screaming to have evolution preached beside creationism in church and since reciprocity is fair play, the creationists should, if they are moral, stay the hell away from those with a higher standard of thought who do not just put power in a God of the gaps.

Regards
DL

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed that

My impression from reading Richard Dawkins was that he'd wasted all this time and energy to disprove the existence of a "God" who had really very little, if anything, in common with the God of theologians and believers anyway. To me "The God Delusion" is a book that says very little about God and quite a lot about Richard Dawkins.

And the bible tells us more about Christians than about God.



Regards
DL

"Atheists are not interested in having their children believing or being taught theories that include fantasy, miracles and magic and a God that will give them endless purposeless torture if they do not believe."

well, i don't know about you or the others, but i know no christians who raise their kids in that way.(the endless purposeless torturepart). furthermore, atheists do teach their kids theories that include fantasy: namely that all answers (will) come from science and that the only evidence there is is scientific evidence. (both of those statements are very questionable, and are atheistic dogma), furthermore they teach their kids the that all of nothing and for no particular reason the world came into being..., as this against the laws of nature it is technically a miracle. offcourse if you want you can argue the 'science-of-the-gaps argument: science does not know that YET but definately will in the future). it is all the 'indoctrination'-argument, but to think that the atheist way of raising kids is not indoctrination of the same kind? that is just untrue, it is easy, they both are or none are.

"You do not see atheists screaming to have evolution preached beside creationism in church and since reciprocity is fair play, the creationists should, if they are moral, stay the hell away from those with a higher standard of thought who do not just put power in a God of the gaps."

you make a small mistake in you reciprocity argument. schools and churches do not form a pair, school is common for both, it is "neutral" ground. reciprocity would be that evolution is preached in churches and creationism at atheist meetings.... but i don't see that happening soon, and oh, yes i have heard of evolution in the church. Pope John Paul II mentions evolution as the way in which God created the world. (yes that is true, he does not dismiss evolution as a fantasy as you probably were thinking)
and the second part: " if they are moral, stay the hell away from those with a higher standard of thought who do not just put power in a God of the gaps"
yeah that tells more about you than anything else... why do you come here to discuss? if you really want to discuss, leave out the emotional nonsense and come with reasonable arguments. sorry for you to say, but when you write things like that, you actually only show that you have no higher standard of thought at all. on the contrary.

your point being? the ones with a star are religious?
i think the shoe perfectly fits atheists as well...

Atheists have no problem with believers until they are told to turn or burn.

I have much evidence that man's morals are better than bible God's as well as his true followers.
Look at any secular law. That is why you follow them and not God's.

Further and as to why I bother with those with religious delusions.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.



They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus


Jesus Camp 1of 9


Promoting death to Gays.


For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Do you see good Christian morals in the links above or evil one's?

Regards
DL

i thought the topic was god and science, you are out of arguments on that topic?

i have not watched the clips and actually i do not need to. i 99% sure it will disgust me. But i think that in this your view is biassed. i would love to see you bring up links of the good deeds religious people do (that does exist too, and there are more of them than the extremist views you put up).
i agree that fundamentalism needs to be battled. there is Muslim, Christian, .. fundamentalism, no way of denying that, and you know i would like to get that fundamentalism out of the way. it indeed gives the whole religion a bad name, and it is not even close to what the religion is about. . But the worst in all of this is that atheist fundamentalism also exists. yes, you do not need a God to be a fundamentalist. the problem is that it is not recognized as such. if i want to fight, i want to fight all fundamentalism, from whatever direction it comes from, so if you really want to fulfill your duty to our fellow man, fight also all fundamentalism, the atheist as well as christian/islam, we will be at the same side.

pokojztoba wrote:
All people including both of us are fundamentally locked into how and what we think and all of us need fairly strong persuasion before we change our minds.

Religious fundamentals hurt people and and all religions and we both recognize that.

Who are atheist fundamentals hurting?

As to you science O. P. you are right and like most topics in this forum, we ended off topic.

That happens to most of my O.P. Get used to it.

Let me give you this though. On topic.



Regards
DL

Themselves and humanity in general. As we have seen even on this forum, atheist fundamentalists are usually people who deny not only God, but spirituality altogether. They are materialists who believe only matter exists. They preach the doctrine of a meaningless universe, a soulless humanity and a mechanistic fragmented reality. They are trying to impose their views on other people without considering the implications for the whole human race. They claim they do everything in the name of science, but they don't realize they are just using science to justify their own brand of fundamentalism. The result is a confused and disorientated society, people with no moral or spiritual compass, unaware of themselves or their true potential, slaves to pleasure, consumerism and entertainment, blown by the winds in all directions, treated in mass with citalopram, robbed of their identity, forced to conform to certain patterns of so-called "normality", brainwashed into thinking pleasure and success are equivalent to value and gloss equivalent to beauty, a society of spammers and trolls "regulated" by political correctness, obsessed with words but ignorant of their meaning, obsessed with entertainment but ignorant of literature and art, ready to deny their cultural heritage and act as if wisdom started with Richard Dawkins. We are getting dangerously close to Huxley's "Brave New World".

What puzzles me about you, DL, is that you don't seem to know where you stand. One moment you talk like an atheist, the next like a gnostic. One moment you seem to adopt materialistic views, the next you acknowledge you believe in some form of divinity. What are you in reality - an atheist or a gnostic? Gnosticism is a form of spirituality, therefore it is incompatible with materialistic atheism. The only thing consistent about you is your hatred against Christians. You seem to grab whatever you can get hold of to fuel and perpetuate this hatred. It doesn't matter what it is - materialism, atheism, gnosticism - as long as you can use it to demolish Christianity.

@DL

Great video once again (sarcasm)

Noone in their right mind would claim that science hasn't contributed greatly to society, it clearly has. But to say Jesus Christ hasn't contributed to the world is dumb. Lets see He's the Creator so the Earth and all those planets out there, yeah those are from God. Oh and not to mention when we screwed everything up He came to our rescue again, science can't save you from your sin, can't forgive you, can't endwell you with the Holy Spirit.

Oh and science has also had some boo boo's as well. For the sake of time we will only name one, Nuclear Bombs.

This video points our raping priests, and yeah that is awful but guess what, there are some sick people in the world and some of those sick people can claim the name of Jesus, and not truly be a follower of Jesus. There are some rapist who are atheists too, and Gnostic Christians (I know that may come as a shock to you).