Yeah, I guess you're right.

So, what should I call God by when I'm debating? "God"?

Because, like you said, "People have all different ideas of what god is."

I suggest you use the "testimonials" category to post your story. Tell us who you are, what you believe, and how you came to believe what you believe. Then, those with whom you debate will have a much better understanding of your beliefs, which will lead to more productive debates.

Bo,

The problem with the extra-terrestrial/terrestrial analogy is that extra-terrestrial elements formed the terrestrial ones, just as god (perhaps) created or formed the Universe. The only difference is the way they interact with each other: hydrogen and oxygen exist indepenently elsewhere in the universe but on earth they combine to create water (i know you realize this I'm just reiterating for argument's sake) but they are all part of the same natural realm. So regardless, even if god had the ability to manipulate the physical world in a way that we couldn't or perhaps simply didn't understand, that would still be a part of his natural abilities. So... I understand the concept and perhaps the necessity to differentiate between what man can do and what god can do, but supernatural is not it. Not especially when it's defined as: "of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal." Now that's just the first definition that pops up on dictionary.com... which is ridiculous because just because we can't explain it yet doesn't make it supernatural. If it was god's natural powers that created our universe, then there is nothing supernatural about anything that he can do... it's just simply the way it is... whether we understand it, like it, can observe it, manipulate it or not.

Having said that... In the course of this discussion with you guys I think it really comes down to how you want to define supernatural. And just for thought.... What God can do to us might seem "super" but when you think about it, how do we know that there isn't some force or realm of existence outside of him? One that governs or even limits what he can and can't do... a place from which he draws his resources. So I think perhaps claiming that anything is supernatural, within our current understanding especially, is unnecessary and somewhat premature. The universe works the way it works... It's not as though an ant can rationally look at humans and say that everything we do is supernatural because they can't do it, and our world operates on a scale so unimaginably larger than theirs. We can start them on fire with a magnifying glass... what are they thinking as we're doing this? "Oh my... the gods just incinerated bob!!" I wonder how well they can actually observe what is happening... whether they can see the reflection of the magnifying glass as little tommy moves it into position with the sun... or if to them their little buddy bob just goes... poof!

Joshua,

It's not about that though. It's about the "Concepts" of God. If we are talking about the concepts of the Christian or Muslim God, there won't be a "force or realm of existence outside of him." Because that's what the concepts imply, hereby making him the "Supernatural." In consistent with these concepts, if a force existed outside of God, he wouldn't be called God anymore let alone Supernatural.

Believing in the Christian or Muslim concepts of God, all the natural laws would be broken by God, if, again, he existed. Hereby making him Impossible to explain or understand, because if he were explainable, our laws in nature would contradict themselves.

If we follow your "Ants" example, then we would be "explainable", but the Ants just wouldn't have the intelligence. The point is even if Humans had the intelligence, God would still be unexplainable.

Unless you were to change the concepts of God and believe in one that receives its powers outside the universe, then no, he wouldn't be a supernatural, if he existed.

So I think it all depends on the concepts, but this argument isn't the case, it doesn't matter who is wrong, or right, here.

Samer,

Even if we do limit this to the god described in the old testament he's still natural. All that exists is natural... no matter how supernatural it seems... relative to us. In the old testament, god is the all knowing, all powerful being. But if that's the case, if that is a FACT... then what's supernatural about it? Nothing. He's already called god because of the fact that he can naturally do things that man cannot. So he's superhuman yes... but not supernatural. He is nature. His powers are nature. If we really take it back to the primitive understanding of the world and Universe held by those who wrote the old testament, then the argument becomes even more sound. God was the natural explanation for everything... why do we live and die? why is it raining? How the hell did I get hit by lightning? Earthquake!? God. He began as a natural explanation for everything. So how then could you call the god of the old testament supernatural? As you ended with "it doesn't matter who is wrong, or right, here" and as I said earlier it really comes down to how you want to define supernatural. But as far as it is defined by the dictionary, I don't really think it's a necessary term. The difference between man and god is a solid concept, but supernatural, I think, is a very poor term to describe it.

Joshua,

Because he goes against the laws of Nature. A Law in my understanding is a Fact. If a force goes against that fact, how will it be explainable without defying the fact? It's impossible, unless you're Supernatural. That's what I meant when I wrote that he is "unexplainable" even IF we had the intelligence we needed.

Tell me, what would a "Supernatural" be in your eyes?

He doesn't go against the laws of nature... He IS the laws of nature. The most "supernatural" thing I can think of from the bible would be the immaculate conception. So Mary spawns a child without the seed of a MAN... but that only means that god defies MAN's natural ability to conceive a child... but we also know that god picked up dust and blew life into it to create adam... so that method of procreation is God's natural ability... and so he can of course impregnate a woman without a physical seed to do so. In the universe where god exists and can control, create and destroy everything at his will that is merely his natural ability. There's a difference between supernatural and superhuman. God is explainable because he IS the explanation... he is extraordinary, all knowing and all powerful... Naturally. And supernatural in my eyes doesn't exist. Since you asked.


BTW... I can't say enough how good it is to be able to have this conversation with you so by no means is any of this meant to be hostile or condescending. Rather, a passionate debate in the hopes of coming to the best conclusion... and If you were old enough (I think you said you were 16) I'd have bought you a beer haha.

Joshua,

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. He created the laws of Nature, how can he be them?

I apologize for not mentioning this earlier, but I am a theist from the Islamic Faith, so I can't agree or disagree with anything that you state is content from the Bible, as I am not very educated with it. But following your examples from the Bible, you saidBut the concept implies that God created everything including Nature. So he created his own Natural abilities. How can he be part of something he created. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm assuming you are trying to say that God is natural, in other words, he created himself? But that goes against the concepts of God, does it not?

In reply with your "BTW" comment, I am glad you thought that. Honestly, I'm enjoying every second of it and I would gladly accept that beer if I was old enough,

**EDIT**
Do you mean it doesn't exist or it can't exist? Because I asked for a concept that could be a supernatural.

Samer,

My point is that God is simply a part of what he created... Kind of like your parents are a part of you, and yet you're separate entities. But really this whole idea that I'm trying to convey is pretty simple... if God exists, anything he creates exists right along with him. Doesn't matter what we're separated by (dimensions, power, understanding) anything that exists, exists naturally. The universe is a natural product of god's efforts, and if we are to believe that existence really comes from god then that is the natural way in which existence comes to be. Your reply does raise a pretty interesting question though... did God create himself?

And I should let you know too that I'm a non-believer... reluctant to call myself an atheist or agnostic but that's a different discussion. BUT regardless I do so enjoy having these chats with others. And you said you are Islamic, i'm curious... do you know that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all considered the Abrahamic religions because they stem from the old testament? Just a question, not meant to be a dig of any kind.

Joshua,

Ok, I see where you're coming from now, you make sense, but not quite enough for me to fully understand.

This is what I see from your point of view.

God > Nature > God > People This is why I still don't understand, it defeats the concepts of God. God can alter anything in Nature.

If I created a Video Game were I coded my own artificial "Nature" I wouldn't be part of it would I? The game might reflect my knowledge, but that is the only thing to it.

I'm getting really confused here.
So in the time when God has created nothing, before the big bang, before the creation of the heavens and earth, before the creation of Adam and Eve, before he created anything, he existed naturally? Let's compare that to my game.

Before I coded my video game, did I exist in my own artificial Nature? Before I coded it? What I see now is this:

Nature > God > People

Or in my example,

Video Game > Samer > Artificial Intelligence

Or something like this:


NATURE - God > People - NATURE

Or in my example,

Video Game - Samer > A.I. - Video Game


You see why I'm confused? It doesn't work, it contradicts the concepts of the God we are talking about here.
I have no Idea, I can't answer that.